How long is too long to wait for Board of Review

[perdidochas]

 

That won't work in a large troop. We've tried it and we ended up doing SMCs every week and then trying to shoehorn in the BORs too.

 

I see nothing wrong with having a schedule and asking the boys to 1) be knowledgeable of the schedule, and 2) work to meet that schedule as it meets their schedule.

 

Few things in adult life are "on demand" other than cable TV. MB classes are not on demand. Training classes are not on demand. Nothing in school is on demand. I see no reason for our unit to do SMCs on demand. If I am completely honest, the need for fixed days originated at a PLC meeting as a way to be more considerate of the adults' time.

 

Take your argument to the next level. If a unit is running as boy-led as possible, why would you have more than 2-3 adults there AT ALL?? So if Tommy comes up to you and says "Can I have an SMC now?", you take another adult and go in to the room to do an SMC. That leaves only 1 adult in the meeting hall. Ok, you say, do the SMC in the meeting hall. But if five more scouts request an SMC you now have to have all three leaders doing an SMC. That's about an hour gone for each leader and that assumes you have a third leader to begin with.

 

Now enter reality. Adults travel. Adults drop off and pick up. Adults are shuttling Tommy's sister to dance so you can't have that "instant BOR".

 

 

I think that is what most folks are saying. Every other week is when we have SMCs. The boys know when to ask and get on the schedule.

 

In a word, adults are busy during the weekday evenings. There are other kids, other events, work travel, etc., that all impacts people's time. We have them once a month, sometimes twice if we know we have a large batch to do. In a unit with over 50 Scouts, you'd be surprised how hard it is to get three parents for a few hours on a week night.

 

Well, if it weren't for BSA regulations, I would agree. A SM isn't needed at meetings.  In terms of the SMC, in our troop, more often than not, a scout can get one the week after they request it.  Not twice a month, but a week after they request. Of course, that depends on the SM's schedule, but more often than not it happens.  SMCs in our troop usually happen in a corner of the meeting area or in a side room that has no door.  Adults are always in sight, although not always in earshot.  BORs the same way. More often than not, we can get together a MC and a combination of two parents and/or MCs the week after the SMC. Of course, there are exceptions, based on individual schedules (primarily the monthly committee meetings which happen at the same time as troop meetings), but with a possibility of 30 parents including about 9 MCs, it's usually possible except for committee meeting night.  I don't understand, besides individual non-scouting schedules and troop activities, why you shouldn't be able to have SMCs and BORs as needed. 

[perdidochas]

At one point I was doing SMCs on weekends, during camp outs, during meetings, during other days of the week, etc. At some point, we as volunteers have to have a life. I don't think letting Tommy wait to the first and third Monday of the month is THAT much of an inconvenience. Nor is it against BSA's intent of immediate recognition.

Are you a SM? I thought you were an ASM?  In our troop (around 30 boys give or take), the SM does all the SMCs, except for his two sons' SMCs, in which case one of the ASMs does it.  January campout, he did three SMCs.  We have done BORs on campouts as well. 

[Krampus]

Well, if it weren't for BSA regulations, I would agree. A SM isn't needed at meetings.

Well, a trained adult leader is needed. If you only have a few of those then the SM would be needed.

 

In terms of the SMC, in our troop, more often than not, a scout can get one the week after they request it.  Not twice a month, but a week after they request.

So in your unit a scout waits no more than a week. In our unit, if a scout plans correctly, he is in the same boat. If he doesn't, he learns how to plan better. Our ASMs also do SMCs if the SM is not around.

 

SMCs in our troop usually happen in a corner of the meeting area or in a side room that has no door.

Our guys do a ton of stuff outside. They hate indoor meetings. Hard to pin down the unit in to one room just to hold SMCs; hence the need for several trained adults to oversee the unit meeting while at least two others do SMCs.

 

BORs the same way. More often than not, we can get together a MC and a combination of two parents and/or MCs the week after the SMC.

BORs are a bit more challenging. The advancement chair manages them. We get adult volunteers as usual. Coordinating "on demand" wouldn't work. Too many parents with too many kids running in too many directions. A set date works fine. No one has complained. No one has missed a rank. No one has missed a chance at Eagle.

 

I don't understand, besides individual non-scouting schedules and troop activities, why you shouldn't be able to have SMCs and BORs as needed.

We *do* have them as needed. We don't have them on demand. Most families have more than one kid. Dad and mom work. Between getting dinner, getting homework done, running late, conflicts with other kids and other activities, everyone just likes to know there is a set day every month to have BORs.

 

Tell me you would have your kid on a soccer team where the coach had "on demand" practices. Why should Scouting be held to a different level of expectation? 

 

Are you a SM? I thought you were an ASM?  In our troop (around 30 boys give or take), the SM does all the SMCs, except for his two sons' SMCs, in which case one of the ASMs does it.  January campout, he did three SMCs.  We have done BORs on campouts as well.

I've held both roles. As I said, I *used* to have SMCs whenever I was asked. In a unit of over 50 boys (usually around 70-80) I was having more SMCs than I can remember, at all times of the week. At some point *I* had to have a life. Ironically, before I could say anything our PLC took action and came up with the schedule we have now.

[andysmom]

Our SM bends over backwards to do whatever a scout needs. He is at the church an hour before troop meetings to accommodate merit badge sessions, working on advancement and SMC. He is meeting with a different Scout tonight for an Eagle SMC who has other commitments this month on meeting nights.

We don't always have ASM or MC at troop meeting. 2 weeks ago it was just the 2 of us (SM and myself) at the meeting. The boys go off and do their own thing in separate rooms at the church, but we wander around just making sure everything is going ok. We can't do on demand BOR because we usually don't have enough adults at a meeting.

[fred johnson]

 That won't work in a large troop.

 

I keep hearing "in a large troop" and I think it's bunk.  Heck, if anything, most larger troops that I know have more adult volunteer leaders.  

 

Sometimes you just choose to make it work.   Sometimes you look for excuses to defend the status quo.

 

I've had the honor of being involved with four different troops.  All great troops.  The smallest was about fifteen scouts.  The largest 60 scouts.  There was virtually ALWAYS plenty of registered adult committee members present and if not almost always enough parent volunteers to make BORs happen and/or to cover for the scoutmaster if he was asked for a SMC.

 

If there were not enough, we text a parent committee member who dropped off their scout to see if they could return 15 minutes before end of the meeting or stay late after the meeting.  

 

 ...  EBORS being a different beast ... 

 

Sometimes this issue is affected by how troops to SMCs and BORs.  I've seen troops that do 30+ minutes SMCs.  I've seen troops that do formal 40+ minute BORs.  Our SMCs are a minimum of 10 minutes and up to 20 minutes.  Our BORs average 15 to 20 minutes, never over 30 minutes.  

 

Heck, in the 60 person troops I've seen, you need to find a reason to keep adult leaders busy otherwise the committee members start interfering too much with the troop program.

 

Sometimes ya just make a choice of how you want it to work and then you make it work.   If you want to schedule BORs and SMCs, fine.  Both can easily be made to work.  

 

It is much much more a matter of the personality of the troop than a structural obstacle.

Edited February 25, 2016 by fred johnson

[fred johnson]

Our SM bends over backwards to do whatever a scout needs. He is at the church an hour before troop meetings to accommodate merit badge sessions, working on advancement and SMC. He is meeting with a different Scout tonight for an Eagle SMC who has other commitments this month on meeting nights.

We don't always have ASM or MC at troop meeting. 2 weeks ago it was just the 2 of us (SM and myself) at the meeting. The boys go off and do their own thing in separate rooms at the church, but we wander around just making sure everything is going ok. We can't do on demand BOR because we usually don't have enough adults at a meeting.

 

... just text a few of the parent committee members to return early or stay late to get a BOR done.  This is really not that hard of a thing.  

[andysmom]

... just text a few of the parent committee members to return early or stay late to get a BOR done.  This is really not that hard of a thing.

 

Only 3 of our committee members are parents, myself, our COR who has another commitment meeting nights and a brand new mom who has been to 1 meeting. Parents drop and run, half of them we never even see. It shouldn't be hard.

[Sentinel947]

Only 3 of our committee members are parents, myself, our COR who has another commitment meeting nights and a brand new mom who has been to 1 meeting. Parents drop and run, half of them we never even see. It shouldn't be hard.

 

It may be worth having a parents meeting to go over some of these things with the parents. @@Eagledad or @@fred johnson might have some advice on how to conduct that sort of thing and what to say.

 

​To explain the need for more committee members and need parents to help out with BOR's

Edited February 26, 2016 by Sentinel947

[SSScout]

*sigh*   How things do change when we forget it is (should be)  about the boys... 

 

'Round 'bout these parts,  it goes like this:

Up to Life,  Scout can ask (ask!) for a SMC any time the SM is present and available and willing.   BoR is arranged when the Scout asks (asks! Not prescheduled) and the CCh is available  and a couple of adults are willing to do the sitting.   Most adults in the Troop are experienced in the duties, or will learn.   We might even use a ASM if no one else is available (contrary to BSA rules, ahem), but always the CCh is in charge.  Results are transmitted to the AdvCh, who is usually there too.

Eagle:   The SM is the "Eagle Advisor"  .   TCommittee sits and reviews his proposed project. When everything is done, accepted, signed off,  the workbook goes to the District Eagle Coordinator for review, then to the Council for review. The Troop AdvCh has already sent the Scouts record to Council for review of the MB dates, etc.   The District Eagle Coord schedules the District (!) Eagle BoR, which happens twice a month , same Tuesdays every month.  Scout goes, SM and parent(s).  Parent(s) are asked to sit as Eagle BoR members with District Ecoord or DAdvCh as chair, for someone other than their Scout's BoR.  And, yep, sometimes there is a problem, but not often.  

 

Your kilometerage may vary .

[Krampus]

I keep hearing "in a large troop" and I think it's bunk.  Heck, if anything, most larger troops that I know have more adult volunteer leaders.

Now you are an expert on my troop?

 

Where you live plays a huge role in how your unit functions. I know large troops (50+ scouts) in rural and suburban areas that have no issues getting adults involved. They tend to have one parent working with the other staying home. In MY area, both parents work mostly. Most have 2-4 kids. Our school district (top 3 in the state) is VERY active and has requirements around after school activities (think mandatory practices and rehearsals). Add to that the competitiveness of the area, parenting styles, etc. and you have a recipe that leads to adults needing some predictability to their schedule. Why is that bad?

 

Sometimes you just choose to make it work.   Sometimes you look for excuses to defend the status quo.

...and sometimes you actually TRY IT, and it DOESN'T WORK and you need to find something else. You're welcome to drop in any time and volunteer YOUR copious free time on nights, weekends, holidays, etc.

 

I've had the honor of being involved with four different troops.  All great troops.  The smallest was about fifteen scouts.  The largest 60 scouts.  There was virtually ALWAYS plenty of registered adult committee members present and if not almost always enough parent volunteers to make BORs happen and/or to cover for the scoutmaster if he was asked for a SMC. If there were not enough, we text a parent committee member who dropped off their scout to see if they could return 15 minutes before end of the meeting or stay late after the meeting.

Your area is obviously different than mine. We've tried that and the reply has been (even from the most fervent of our volunteers), "I have to run Betty to dance, pick up Bobby from soccer, get something for dinner and get the baby bathed and put down. Steve is travelling this week and I still have two conference calls this evening. Sorry, I can't do this on short notice." When you begin to hear that on a regular basis you realize you need a different model.

 

It is much much more a matter of the personality of the troop than a structural obstacle.

...and sometimes the BOYS see the problem and come up with a solution...which ours did.

 

You seem to think you know better for our unit. You must be one of the know-it-all WB'ers that run by district and council. They think they know what is best for our unit too, yet they don't seem to realize the majority of large troops in my area operate in a similar fashion. Why? They've tried your way too and it does not work in our area. It is not like we haven't tried it. We have...and it burned out our volunteers.

 

As I said, you are welcome to come and volunteer YOUR time. I cannot ask people who put 20 hours a week in to running MB classes, working with the scouts to organize service projects, adults who take time off of work to go camping, etc., to give EVEN MORE.

Edited February 26, 2016 by Krampus

[Eagledad]

I don't understand the objection to SMCs and BORs happening as soon as possible.  If the Troop is running correctly, what is the SM needed for during meetings besides conducting SMC's?  What are the MC's doing during meetings that's more pressing than having a BOR?  The Scouts should be doing most of the work and running the meetings.

 

I'm not saying that a Scout should be able to have a SMC the same minute or meeting he asks for one, but what's wrong with a week's notice to the SM? (again, in an average or small sized troop, big troops working much differently).  Why shouldn't a BOR be scheduled the week after the SMC?  Again, I understand if the individuals can't make one week, but at least in our troop, we have probably 9 or 10 MC's/parents who can be part of a BOR. 

I have to agree. This is a strange conversation.

 

I was the SM of a large troop and we do our SM conferences and BOR at the request of scouts. They usually didn't get a conference that day, but they might. Some folks here like to talk the big talk of their boy run or patrol method program, but I wonder sometimes. What takes up so much of your SM's time during a meeting?

 

I had four task during the average Troop meeting:

1. Before the troop meeting I talked with the SPL about the PLC meeting to learn what they desired from the adults. We have a PLC meeting each week before the troop meeting.

 

2. Scoutmaster conferences and coffee with the adults. Time with the adults was important for me because that is where I talked a lot about the reasoning behind patrol method and why we weren't in the same rooms with the boys. And it also just fun talking about other stuff.

 

3. Scoutmaster minute at the end of the meeting (SPL only gave me 2 minutes).

 

4. Listen to the PLC during their post meeting discussion.

 

That was it basically. Oh of course other things popped up like talking to parents, guest, CC on an as need basis, but basically my time during meetings was scoutmaster conferences and coffee and stuff. What do your Scoutmasters do? 

 

As for patience, our scouts practice patience full time while doing their scouting stuff. Patience is one of the most practiced skills as a youth leader and is discussed "A Lot" during my conferences and reviews with scouts.

 

To be honest, with all the character traits the scouts' struggle with while making decisions in a boy run program, patience seems like a flimsy excuse for adults to justify a procedure used in their program. Why can't you just say, "we do it this way because it works for us." ? Does every tradition, process or habit  in your unit have to be justified by nobility of the effort? Can't it be justified because it flows well in your program? What next, Thursday Troop meetings are the best because it forces the scout to practice loyalty? 

 

Let's step back a little and present some ideas without feeling like we have to defend our reasoning. At least with stuff like this.

 

Barry

[Eagledad]

It may be worth having a parents meeting to go over some of these things with the parents. @@Eagledad or @@fred johnson might have some advice on how to conduct that sort of thing and what to say.

 

​To explain the need for more committee members and need parents to help out with BOR's

We tried different approaches to BORs over the years. We found that using parents was a good way for them to get involved enough to see how the program works. The challenge was maintaining a consistency with the quality of the BORs as different parents came and went. We fixed that problem by asking one or two experienced committee members to lead BORs. They had a lot of BOR experience and were trained with the BSA advancement documents. The BOR leaders guided the parents during discussions and helped keep the reviews on track. They basically set the tone for the parents to follow for asking the questions. We had written questions for each rank that we gave the parents so they didn't get too far off with their questions. The BOR leader also knew the appropriate off the cuff questions that could be asked to enhance a scouts review. But the trick with using parents successfully in BORs was using and experienced leader to guide and set the tone of the discussion.

 

We also tried using older scouts in the BOR. It was my attempt to bring in more boy run responsibility for the scouts. We found that having an older scout on the board relaxed the new scouts because the board to them was just a bunch of adult strangers testing their skills. Believe it or not, the challenge was finding enough qualified scouts because they were pretty busy. 

 

Barry

Edited February 26, 2016 by Eagledad

[Stosh]

I do believe that it has been posted on the thread that members of the board need to be 21 years old.   For those who are sticklers for the rules, it could pose a problem to have another scout in the room.

Edited February 26, 2016 by Stosh

[Sentinel947]

I do believe that it has been posted on the thread that members of the board need to be 21 years old.   For those who are sticklers for the rules, it could pose a problem to have another scout in the room.

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf 

 

8.0.0.3 Composition of a BOR. Page 55. 

[Eagledad]

I do believe that it has been posted on the thread that members of the board need to be 21 years old.   For those who are sticklers for the rules, it could pose a problem to have another scout in the room.

Yes, you are right. I was very conscious of the guidelines while trying the idea. But it was important to me at the time that scout responsibilities be pushed as far as it could. I was passionate about scout independence and responsibility at the time. The scouts roles were limited and watched closely. As I said, the real challenge was finding the scouts with the time. I think that, more than the BSA guidelines, is why the experiment faded out. By the way, the DE and District Commissioner knew we were trying it and were guiding us to try and prevent us from stepping out of line. 

 

Barry