Should SM be asked to leave?

[Stosh]

Committee is very disgruntled with SM, and Chairwoman that was called bad name wants to quit post, my hubby, Unit commissioner has calmed her, telling her that he will take care of things and will put SM in his place.  KIds DO NOT like going camping 4 times a year and my son is going to change that with HIS LEADERSHIP.  He will get them camping once a month with hopefully day outings inbetween.  My hubby is just trying to do this diplomatically and let SM hang himself, make the noose a little bit tighter.

Doesn't sound like hubby is much into the Scout Law thingy much, nor does his efforts of ASSISTING the SM come into play much either.  If hubby is UC and ASM, I'm thinking there's a major conflict of interest going on here as well.  This has all the makings of a major flare up well up into the District level.  It's a game no one is going to win and scouting careers are on the line all the way around.  I for one would never take on SM of the troop to replace the current SM.  Not much longevity potential here.  I wouldn't want the current UC to be anywhere near the subsequent situation either.  And to have an ASM on my team that tossed out the last SM would not be on my agenda either.  I would recommend as a DE to toss out all the adult leadership and start over from scratch.

[perdidochas]

 

SM not showing up to the Eagle project:   I'm okay with that.   It's the candidate's project and opportunity to lead without a bunch of adults cluttering up the situation.

 

Sounds like the SPL has the right game plan.  Persevering.  Taking the high road.  Doing a great job.   Overcoming obstacles.  Striving to provide a great program.   All hallmarks of a good Eagle-to-be.

 

I agree.  I actually think it's a good thing for the SM NOT to be at the Eagle project (unless the SM has a particular technical skill needed).  With both of my sons' Eagle projects, the only SM or ASM present was me, and I was there as a parent, primarily.  We did have a couple of other parents and MCs, but no leaders.  It's the Eagle candidate's job to lead without adult interference. I didn't interfere, I was a gofer for my sons. 

[Stosh]

I agree.  I actually think it's a good thing for the SM NOT to be at the Eagle project (unless the SM has a particular technical skill needed).  With both of my sons' Eagle projects, the only SM or ASM present was me, and I was there as a parent, primarily.  We did have a couple of other parents and MCs, but no leaders.  It's the Eagle candidate's job to lead without adult interference. I didn't interfere, I was a gofer for my sons. 

Agreed!  Any time I showed up at an Eagle project as SM/ASM it was to provide rides and only follow directives from the Eagle candidate.  I did tend to tell other adults to stay out of the way of the Eagle's directives.    Old habits are hard to break. 

[Krampus]

Heretic, not sure where you are coming from?  Son "just" was elected to SPL postion two weeks ago and is VERY responsible!!!  He just needs direction as to what the SM wants. SM was very inappropriate in expecting that my son "knew" how to run things, when he was never even spoken to about the SPL position in this troop.  Son wants to help change this troop with REAL boy leadership and REAL boy involvement, but needs a bit of direction is all.

 

It is a shame the SM is like this. Here is my advice for your son. This is the same advice I give my SPL and his PLs:

• Look at the troop calendar. Plan the next 1-2 months of meetings. 
• Try to align the troop meetings with any monthly themes you might have. For example, if the monthly theme is orienteering try to make the troop meetings orienteering themed.
• Using the Troop Program Features documents, come up with ideas for skills, games and activities for your future meetings.
• Using the Troop Program Resources document, come up with other activities or games for your meetings.
• Using the Troop Meeting Plan template develop the troop meeting plan for each meeting. Using the materials and ideas from the Troop Program Features and Troop Program Resources to help populate the meeting plan.
• Make sure to assign one patrol responsible for set up, one for flag ceremony, and any others for other activities. The PLs should work with their patrols to organize how they will accomplish their assigned task.
• When done, share the meeting plans with all PLs, the SM and the other Scoutmasters.

This should put the lazy SM in his place and demonstrate that your son DOES have what it takes despite the SM's inability to do HIS JOB effectively. Sorry, I get a bit angry at adults who put it all back on the kids. Boy led DOES require adult involvement.

 

Committee is very disgruntled with SM, and Chairwoman that was called bad name wants to quit post, my hubby, Unit commissioner has calmed her, telling her that he will take care of things and will put SM in his place.  KIds DO NOT like going camping 4 times a year and my son is going to change that with HIS LEADERSHIP.  He will get them camping once a month with hopefully day outings inbetween.  My hubby is just trying to do this diplomatically and let SM hang himself, make the noose a little bit tighter.

 

Wow!! I didn't realize it was the troop committee chairman who was called the bad names. Does she realize SHE is in control of the SM's fate? If she wants she can kick him out with the troop committee approval. Better have someone willing to step in though. The SM leads the boys, but he serves at the pleasure of the TC and the charter organization.

[zuzy]

Well, all I can say is this...............I am being a "mom" here.  Yes, he is my little lovey, no, he does not need my direction.  He did quite well the night of the meeting on his own.  It was just that my little lovey was viciously attacked, IMHO, over a text message, expecting him to have a plan for the meeting or use the plan that was already created from the last SPL.  I did not like the tone that the SM master used with my lovey.  Son was a bit miffed and baffled as to what the SM maeant by any of the texts as SM never met with him after he was elected SPL.  Troop only has maybe 12 meetings a year, so son didn't really have a good chance to see everything behind the scenes.

 

Son is ready and willing to make a go of this.  I will stand behind my lovey, encourage him, have his strive for excellence and he WILL NOT stoop down to this SM's level of scouting!!  I just am hurt "for" my son that he is being talked to in texts like this.  I believe in respecting everyone.  

 

Guess "I" am not scouting material, wasnt' even a girl scout, BUT I know right from wrong and personal human kindness.  This guy stinks and the rest of the parents think so too, unitl now, they just did not know where to turn to fix things.  This troop had a mass exodus when this guy took over three years ago.  Had 20 families then, only 9 now.  No new recruits the past few years, gee wonder why.  Why did son go here?  Because it "seemed" like a nice troop and he wanted to earn his Eagle.  Had to find a troop that met on Sundays instead of during the week to do sports and scouts. He is willing to work double duty for the sports and scouts to get'er done

[Sentinel947]

I agree.  I actually think it's a good thing for the SM NOT to be at the Eagle project (unless the SM has a particular technical skill needed).  With both of my sons' Eagle projects, the only SM or ASM present was me, and I was there as a parent, primarily.  We did have a couple of other parents and MCs, but no leaders.  It's the Eagle candidate's job to lead without adult interference. I didn't interfere, I was a gofer for my sons. 

 

I attend as many projects as I can, but more to keep parents and other well meaning adults from meddling.

[zuzy]

Thank you for the suggestions Krampus.  Son is going to sit down and make a few plans for future meetings and is going to incorporate fun things, team building exercises and also learning activities, such as knots and things.  This troop has been so out of the loop of real scouting that it hurts.  I feel so bad for the scouts that have stuck it out with this regime.  And I now changing over will take time.  The parents seem  to agree that they want more of a scouting expereince for their boys, just don't know where to turn.

 

Hubby says that he has to talk to COR about removal, and he has been working on trying to obtain their contact info, but it seems nobody can help him get it.  It was'nt the top Chairwoman that was called a name it was the one who handles the finances of the troop.  I don't even know all the ranks or names of the committee.

 

I just want my son to have at least "one" good year of scouting, up until now, it has been a disappointment.

[Stosh]

Well, all I can say is this...............I am being a "mom" here.  Yes, he is my little lovey, no, he does not need my direction.  He did quite well the night of the meeting on his own.  It was just that my little lovey was viciously attacked, IMHO, over a text message, expecting him to have a plan for the meeting or use the plan that was already created from the last SPL.  I did not like the tone that the SM master used with my lovey.  Son was a bit miffed and baffled as to what the SM maeant by any of the texts as SM never met with him after he was elected SPL.  Troop only has maybe 12 meetings a year, so son didn't really have a good chance to see everything behind the scenes.

 

Son is ready and willing to make a go of this.  I will stand behind my lovey, encourage him, have his strive for excellence and he WILL NOT stoop down to this SM's level of scouting!!  I just am hurt "for" my son that he is being talked to in texts like this.  I believe in respecting everyone.  

 

Guess "I" am not scouting material, wasnt' even a girl scout, BUT I know right from wrong and personal human kindness.  This guy stinks and the rest of the parents think so too, unitl now, they just did not know where to turn to fix things.  This troop had a mass exodus when this guy took over three years ago.  Had 20 families then, only 9 now.  No new recruits the past few years, gee wonder why.  Why did son go here?  Because it "seemed" like a nice troop and he wanted to earn his Eagle.  Had to find a troop that met on Sundays instead of during the week to do sports and scouts. He is willing to work double duty for the sports and scouts to get'er done

 

Nothing wrong with being "mom".  It's the most important job in the world in my book!

 

But a time in everyone's life when "mom" needs to step back a bit and gently kick the lovey chick in the butt and out of the nest.    It's a terribly painful process for both mom and son, but it's necessary.  I once read about how butterflies get out of their cocoons.  They have a HUGE battle and struggle to break free of the binds that hold them in, but the struggle forces blood into the wings and makes them functional.  Scientists who cut open cocoons to "help" the butterfly get free realized this was doing tremendous harm and the butterfly eventually died within days.

 

You've done the bulk of your "mom" thingy for your son, one now has only one more task, make him independently confident in what HE chooses to do with his life.  Don't worry, he'll fly and the sooner the better.

[zuzy]

Thanks Stosh.  My mommness needs to calm down a bit.  Maybe SM will realize that my son can help and maybe even take a load off of him a bit.  Let him lead and see where it goes...........

[Stosh]

This should put the lazy SM in his place and demonstrate that your son DOES have what it takes despite the SM's inability to do HIS JOB effectively. Sorry, I get a bit angry at adults who put it all back on the kids. Boy led DOES require adult involvement.

 

Adult association I think is the verbiage used by the BSA.    The SM that does get out of the way and expects the boys to lead IS doing his job effectively.  You can get angry at me then because I do put it all back on the kids, i.e. boy-led for real and the the only involvement they get from me are a multitude of suggestions they might want to consider to be successful.  The vast majority of my boys prefer it that way. 

 

Wow!! I didn't realize it was the troop committee chairman who was called the bad names. Does she realize SHE is in control of the SM's fate? If she wants she can kick him out with the troop committee approval. Better have someone willing to step in though. The SM leads the boys, but he serves at the pleasure of the TC and the charter organization.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always thought it was the COR that could alter unit personnel.   The SM serves at the pleasure of the COR, same for the CC.  The UC, the CC and even MC's could offer advice on the fate of a SM but the COR was the sole decider.  Same for the removal of the CC, the SM might be consulted.

[zuzy]

Okay, just spoke with Hubby and he said as the UC, he really should not do the SM position.  He has someone that will be able to do it, but not until January.  So, that is a predicament.  He is very big on Scout Law, I spoke out of turn before.  He is just holding the current SM to his duties and reminding him that he should not speak to committee members as the was he did.

[qwazse]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always thought it was the COR that could alter unit personnel.   The SM serves at the pleasure of the COR, same for the CC.  The UC, the CC and even MC's could offer advice on the fate of a SM but the COR was the sole decider.  Same for the removal of the CC, the SM might be consulted.

 

Those aloof and invisible CoRs! Catch one if you can.

 

@@zuzy, valid though your concerns may be, you gotta take a step back.

Likewise, your husband as UC should tread carefully. There is a whole lot to say against assigning commissioners to troops where their kids are members. Frankly, he should ask someone else in the district to take on the position, and only approach any issues in the troop as an ASM.

 

Why? I would imagine a UC without entanglements would have called the SM immediately about how he was treating his fellow scouters. He would have gotten both parties in the same room to try and make peace. Then he would have encouraged those parties to reconcile with the TC about how one or both of them let things get out of hand and affirm that it will not happen again.

 

Just saw your post. Your man is trying to do the right thing ... and calm mamma bear!

Edited February 23, 2016 by qwazse

[Stosh]

Okay, just spoke with Hubby and he said as the UC, he really should not do the SM position.  He has someone that will be able to do it, but not until January.  So, that is a predicament.  He is very big on Scout Law, I spoke out of turn before.  He is just holding the current SM to his duties and reminding him that he should not speak to committee members as the was he did.

 

One would not want to see any of this fiasco as a power play by hubby using his UC position to take over the troop as SM.  That kind of reputation would not be good.  The UC should be the District referee in situations like this, not one of the participants.

[Hedgehog]

 

I don't believe I said anything about taking on the SM. 

 

...why isn't he the one talking with the CC and COR? ... we're talking about an Eagle candidate who needs to step up his game and show a bit more leadership than just on his petty little Eagle project.  ... If one is going to run with the big dogs, one had better learn how the pecking order works....

 

Maybe SPL is 6'+ and looks like a 17 year old, if he doesn't  have the fortitude to figure out this as being more than just wearing a patch or having a lesson plan written down, then he needs to find a more comfortable POR. 

 

 

I have a difficult time interpreting telling the boy to go to the CC and COR with his issues about the Scoutmaster as anything but telling him to take on the Scoutmaster.  Also, I think your disparaging comments about a 14 year old who is struggling (and it appears succeeding) to lead AS A RESULT of a Scoutmaster who appears to be doing everything in his power to have the boy fail are out of line when you (as well as the rest of us) don't know the situation.  NO SCOUT should have to function in a hostile environment.  That is not part of the program.  This Scout seems to be trying to make the program more boy led and more outdoor oriented and all you can talk about is "more than just wearing a patch?"  Give me a freaking break.  The role of adults is to build up the boys into men, not tear them down.  It seems like the SM and you are both trying to tear this boy down before he even has a chance to suceed.  That is not my idea of the program.

 

So then the SM just might be correct, the SPL Eagle candidate isn't showing much leadership.  Sitting around for two weeks waiting for SM directive isn't leadership.  If the SM sits around with his nose in his laptop during meetings, obviously he's not getting in the way of youth leadership. 

 

...

 

If it were my son who was the Eagle candidate SPL, I would have a bit of a talk with him about stepping up his game and start leading the troop as he has been elected to do.  If he isn't doing it right, he won't have to sit around very long waiting for the SM to say something. 

 

Again, I think you are out of line blaming the boy in this situation when the SM provides no guidance and then reams him out for not doing what the SM expects.  That is the hallmark of an adult led troop -- setting the boys up for failure.  

 

 

 

Not a problem, I have witnessed many cases where mom and dad come running to the rescue of  their precious little defenseless child from some Neanderthal brute of an abusive adult. 

 

It is very difficult for me not to take that as a sarcastic personal insult.  

 

If someone is bullying (defined as using a position of supreriority to manipulate them) my child, I will rectify the situation by using whatever power is at my disposal.  Sometimes, that will be the power of advice to my child.  When it is an adult using a position of power to belittle and demean a child, I will intervene - regardless of whether it is my child or someone else's child.  Sometimes, all that is needed to stand up for yourself is the knowledge that your parent will stand behind you.  

 

Guess "I" am not scouting material, wasnt' even a girl scout, BUT I know right from wrong and personal human kindness. 

 

You know more about scouting then you give yourself credit for.  A Scout is Friendly, Courteous and Kind.  Remind your son that a Scout is Cheerful and Brave.  And NEVER stop being a MOM.

[MattR]

Well, all I can say is this...............I am being a "mom" here.

We're not trying to beat you up here. Your asking for help is great. We've all been through dealing with people like this before and we're focusing on the practical. We're also thinking about your son. The other thing that's not being mentioned is that, believe it or not, this is an opportunity. Most problems are. Read the front page on the BSA website and it will say something along the lines of teaching scouts how to make good decisions. Granted, this guy is not anything we'd create, but, if he's not wearing down your son so much that your son is frustrated, lemons and lemonade. If your son can and wants to improve the troop, let him do it. What a great service. Yes, he'll need some help. If there are people backing you up to remove the SM, that will help. Your job is to be mom and watch your son to see if this is getting to be too much for him. Oh wait, you are mom, no problem . If your son can make progress then he will learn a ton. I just had a scout tell me he wrote his college essay about a disaster he had to deal with at summer camp. A kid brought weed to summer camp, there was an inquisition over lost/stolen money that would have driven a scout out of the troop it weren't for this older scout that did the right thing. We certainly didn't plan this. It just happened. And it worked out.

 

Anybody can show good scout spirit where there are no problems, so we don't try and solve what we think they can handle. That's why I asked how your son was dealing with it.