Do your scouts have patrol level POR's?

[fred johnson]

Agreed with Stosh. My Troop has had NSPs since it was started in the 90s. Adults don't sign off requirements. The Troop guides do.

 

Our troop has had NSP as long as I've been involved.  It works smooth and the scouts seem to like it.  Also, it's seems less about a "NSP" and more about trying to get the scouts to form groups of friends they will be close to for the next 5 to 7 years. 

[fred johnson]

It also depends on who you have as troop guides. 

 

Yeah, I don't really understand how Troop Guides would work with new scouts assigned into all the other patrols.  Unless Troop Guides work "one on one", the result is pulling scouts from their patrol for troop guide instruction.  IMHO, that's bad as the whole idea of a patrol is a set of kids who camp, play, work and do things together.  If scouts leave a patrol for Troop Guide time or instruction time, then it defeats the purpose of the patrol.  The only way I see mixed patrols working is if the patrol takes responsibility for training the new scout.  Then, "Troop Guides" end up having no job.

[qwazse]

Yeah, I don't really understand how Troop Guides would work with new scouts assigned into all the other patrols.  Unless Troop Guides work "one on one", the result is pulling scouts from their patrol for troop guide instruction.  IMHO, that's bad as the whole idea of a patrol is a set of kids who camp, play, work and do things together.  If scouts leave a patrol for Troop Guide time or instruction time, then it defeats the purpose of the patrol.  The only way I see mixed patrols working is if the patrol takes responsibility for training the new scout.  Then, "Troop Guides" end up having no job.

It's all about, the community, the vision that the older boys have, and what they would like to support. Here's how one might see this working.

 

Troop 7 is lucky to have 12 boys on average cross over each year and 7 boys (one from each class) quit and 3 age-out every year. So, among 11 to 15 year-olds, they have 50 boys organized into 4 patrols, and among the 16 and 17 year olds they have 13 boys for senior leadership including guides and instructors. Each patrol takes on about 3 crossovers. One to four troop guides take on the responsibility of keeping tabs on the crossovers for their first four months. They introduce the scouts to their PL and APL, ask them simple stuff like "Do you like your patrol?", "Are the leaders helping you?", and "Did you get that Scout rank yet?" "Would you like to be patrol leader some day?" "Do you need help with a uniform?" They follow-up with the PL to see if he's been able to teach the newbies some basics. They line up instructors, and maybe figure out some down time when the new boys are off patrol duty so they can troddle over to the parade field for some instruction. Or they line up a patrol with an instructor to get one patrol up to speed with a particular skill. They touch base with the SPL about how things are going.

 

By four months, everyone is in summer camp, and the guides can turn in their patches. Maybe one of them could keep the PoR just to make sure things are running smoothly and to be ready to welcome any new scouts who come along in the off-peak season.

 

In this framework, guides are not central to the well-being of the new scouts, the PLs are. But they are there to smooth out rough patches.

[Eagle94-A1]

Agreed with Stosh. My Troop has had NSPs since it was started in the 90s. Adults don't sign off requirements. The Troop guides do.

 

I was in one of the troops testing NSPs in 1986, and it was a complete and total disaster. We went back to mixed aged patrols.

 

We essentially tried NSP again when a brand new troop asked to tag along with us until they could get started on their own. That troop was a one patrol troop, essentially an NSP, and it was a disaster again. the two troops ended up merging., and the NSP was disbanded. Again my experience with NSPs has been negative, especially this last go around.

 

As for troop guides signing off on rank, that is a personal comment on the situation in my troop. Adults sign off on advancement. I don't like it, but I'm not the SM.

[Sentinel947]

I was in one of the troops testing NSPs in 1986, and it was a complete and total disaster. We went back to mixed aged patrols.

 

We essentially tried NSP again when a brand new troop asked to tag along with us until they could get started on their own. That troop was a one patrol troop, essentially an NSP, and it was a disaster again. the two troops ended up merging., and the NSP was disbanded. Again my experience with NSPs has been negative, especially this last go around.

 

As for troop guides signing off on rank, that is a personal comment on the situation in my troop. Adults sign off on advancement. I don't like it, but I'm not the SM.

 

Right. We have this discussion every other month or so. Some Troops make mixed age patrols work, some use NSPs. I think both are fine uses of the patrol method, if they are done properly. Both are fine ways to foster youth leadership, if done properly. In the end this is one of those areas of Scouting discussion where both sides can be right, and everybody has to find out what works best for them.

 

​As for your Adult sign off situation, have you tried talking to the SM and CC about the practice? What did you say? How was your input received?

[Eagle94-A1]

I haven't mentioned it at all to the CC. He only comes around for BORs, and the last time I talked to him, it was about another issue. As for the SM, I've mentioned it to him and others, but with no emphasis on youth signing off. I've been focusing on other issues, specifically getting the troop to be more youth run, and riding herd on the NSP. I've been focusing on getting the SPL to plan and organize meetings, and getting him to find Scouts with the knowledge, skills, and abilities (KSAs) to lead instruction.  While we got along way to go, at least we don't have an adult lecturing at all the meetings.

 

To "knock it off with them negative waves," while the troop has a ways to go to be fully Scout-led, we actually have made a lot of progress from a year ago. SPL, 2/3 PLs and the TGs are taking on more of the responibility they should have. Scouts in the patrols are learning, and those with the KSAs are teaching.

[Sentinel947]

I haven't mentioned it at all to the CC. He only comes around for BORs, and the last time I talked to him, it was about another issue. As for the SM, I've mentioned it to him and others, but with no emphasis on youth signing off. I've been focusing on other issues, specifically getting the troop to be more youth run, and riding herd on the NSP. I've been focusing on getting the SPL to plan and organize meetings, and getting him to find Scouts with the knowledge, skills, and abilities (KSAs) to lead instruction.  While we got along way to go, at least we don't have an adult lecturing at all the meetings.

 

To "knock it off with them negative waves," while the troop has a ways to go to be fully Scout-led, we actually have made a lot of progress from a year ago. SPL, 2/3 PLs and the TGs are taking on more of the responibility they should have. Scouts in the patrols are learning, and those with the KSAs are teaching.

 

Keep on keeping on. Like you, I'm an ASM. We both have realized we have to smartly pick and choose what battles to wage. Can't win everything all at once. Sounds like things are going in the right direction, so don't get discouraged.

[Eagle94-A1]

Keep on keeping on. Like you, I'm an ASM. We both have realized we have to smartly pick and choose what battles to wage. Can't win everything all at once. Sounds like things are going in the right direction, so don't get discouraged.

 

Like I keep saying, I gotta "knock it off with them negative waves."

[Hedgehog]

It's all about, the community, the vision that the older boys have, and what they would like to support. Here's how one might see this working.

 

Troop 7 is lucky to have 12 boys on average cross over each year and 7 boys (one from each class) quit and 3 age-out every year. So, among 11 to 15 year-olds, they have 50 boys organized into 4 patrols, and among the 16 and 17 year olds they have 13 boys for senior leadership including guides and instructors. Each patrol takes on about 3 crossovers. One to four troop guides take on the responsibility of keeping tabs on the crossovers for their first four months. They introduce the scouts to their PL and APL, ask them simple stuff like "Do you like your patrol?", "Are the leaders helping you?", and "Did you get that Scout rank yet?" "Would you like to be patrol leader some day?" "Do you need help with a uniform?" They follow-up with the PL to see if he's been able to teach the newbies some basics. They line up instructors, and maybe figure out some down time when the new boys are off patrol duty so they can troddle over to the parade field for some instruction. Or they line up a patrol with an instructor to get one patrol up to speed with a particular skill. They touch base with the SPL about how things are going.

 

By four months, everyone is in summer camp, and the guides can turn in their patches. Maybe one of them could keep the PoR just to make sure things are running smoothly and to be ready to welcome any new scouts who come along in the off-peak season.

 

In this framework, guides are not central to the well-being of the new scouts, the PLs are. But they are there to smooth out rough patches.

 

Sounds a lot like our troop.  The TG's are responsible for advancement of the new guys to First Class.  They work in conjunction with the PLs and APLs.  Our Troop Guides are typically the older scouts who have previously been PLs and APLs.

 

As for troop guides signing off on rank, that is a personal comment on the situation in my troop. Adults sign off on advancement. I don't like it, but I'm not the SM.

 

Are the boys authorized to sign off?  If they can, then encourage the boys to take charge.  If not, it's an issue to dicuss with the SM.

 

Our troop has a rule that any First Class Scout and above can sign off on requirements.  Well, sort of.  We've been scaling it back to just the PLs, APLs and TGs.  Those guys tend to be Star and above and tend to be more thorough in signing off.  Our SM signs off on Star, Life and Eagle requirements.  

 

Keep on keeping on. Like you, I'm an ASM. We both have realized we have to smartly pick and choose what battles to wage. Can't win everything all at once. Sounds like things are going in the right direction, so don't get discouraged.

 

 

As Robert Frost says, "we'e got miles to go before we sleep."  At least we've taken "the road less travelled."

 

My advice is to pick and choose the battles but to keep talking to the younger guys.  As they get older, they will believe in boy-led and know what it means.  Talk to their parents too.  Talk to the new ASMs as they join.  Get their buy in to the concept of the boys leading.  As time goes on, the majority of parents and ASMs will have bought into the concept and changes become easier.

[blw2]

when this NSP topic comes up, it's said by many of you that "you tried it, and it was a failure"

A failure in what way?

 

It still seems to me that a lot of it would have to do with what your definition of success is.

 

As i've mentioned before, my son is in a new NSP.  It was just the two of them on the campout this weekend, but the troop just gained a strong handful more AOL award scouts, for the patrol that will get started next week.  On the campout, the Guide and Troop Instructor both spent some one on one time with the two current new scouts, making great progress on Scout rank.  

 

The troop is just getting the concept started, and honestly i can't say that they are doing it all "right",  But they have a good vision at least.  The SM has chosen to go the route of an assigned NSP ASM.  I had lots of conversations over the weekend with the SM and ASM's about a lot of various things.  One topic I hope is that I got them to thinking about how it might not work well if the ASM becomes a 3rd year WEBELOS den leader.

 

And another observation they had was a nearby troop whose NSP efforts failed... but it seems that in that case the NSP was basically being treated like Frat house pledges.  they were doing all the work, and all the unwanted nasty or hard jobs.... yeah, no that ain't gonna work!

[Krampus]

when this NSP topic comes up, it's said by many of you that "you tried it, and it was a failure"

A failure in what way?

1. Was adult-led. Webelos III.
2. The boys had a tough time learning to adapt to older patrol life the following year because that initial development was delayed.
3. Taught over-reliance on adults to manage their patrol business.
4. Some adults more authoritative than others in running their patrols.
5. Could not get Guides to take over NSPs because they saw them as "Kindergartens".
6. Retention rate of first year scouts was roughly 60-65% for the 8 years we had the NSPs.

After we switched to mixed patrols, retention went up to nearly 90% in that first year, scouts were trained to take over patrol positions because they learned a great deal rather than relying on adults to do it all for them.

 

As others here are fond of saying, your mileage may vary.

[TAHAWK]

What am I missing?

 

Adults who will not stick to their roles are a problem regardless of whether a patrol are all new Scouts or not.

 

Adults and "their patrols" sounds like the problem, not NSPs as such.

 

Troop Guides are not supposed to "take over" patrols.  They are to be resources, coaches, guides, and examples, not PLsl.

[Stosh]

I find it interesting that the latest and greatest Webelos book talks about what it will be like in the BSA troops they will be joining soon.  The boys are expected to put into words what is meant by the Patrol Method and the three types of patrols they might encounter in their new troop. 

 

From what I see promoted in some troops is a patrol method with a one-size-fits-all patrol program.  And then I find it difficult to think I'm the BSA Heretic for promoting the latest publication of New-Scout patrols, Regular patrols and Venture patrols. 

 

EVERY AOL awardee is required to know this.  Someone ought to incorporate this into the BSA SM/ASM fundamentals training someday.

[Krampus]

Not to hijack the thread but does anyone have rank level requirements or training requirements for any PORs?  For example, must be FC to be PL, must have NYLT to be SPL?

 

And if you have of these requirements, do you stick to them or are they flexible?

[Stosh]

No prerequisites for any POR.  It's not part of the requirement.    It kinda sounds like adult rules that are adding expectations and additional requirements to the intent of the advancement requirement.  Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.