Do your scouts have patrol level POR's?

[qwazse]

I like Hedge's procedure as well.

 

Sometimes you need to cast a vision with parents:

"How would you like, when your son goes to college, or maybe becomes your business partner, for him to give you a reckoning of income and expenses before he asks for the next infusion of cash? Well, that kinda discipline starts here!"

 

Sure it's real $, but it's not as many real $ as they'll be managing 7 years from now,

[Hedgehog]

Oh boy, I have already heard that chorus singing loud!  I only barely broached the topic so far once with the CC and a couple other committee members present... really just feeling it out about how much they have used the scouts in the past.... "Oh, no... we don't want to do that.  This is real money we're talking about!"

 

I've learned that front-on charges at windmills rarely work.  Rather, it is the quiet whispers to the scouts and leaders that slowly changes the nature of a Troop.

 

Also, the Committee Chair and Committee Members are the WORST people to approach.  Chances are they haven't been trained in what Boy-Led actually is.  It is even worse if they have been with the Troop for a while and think that what has been going on is perfectly fine.

[fred johnson]

As mentioned before, a patrol scribe is a special SM project for one month, a patrol QM for a month, a patrol Chaplain Aide for one month, etc. all adding up to the requisite number of months of POR.  And if I read it correctly there is no time tenure needed for a SM project.  So that takes care of Star and Life.  Eagle, 6 month tenure as Instructor doing a once a month class for the younger boys.  Discussion over.

 

You're right.  You as scoutmaster can work with the scouts to game the system and implement your own program.  

 

It's interesting that we are in a program to teach character and leadership and you're talking about how to get around the rules to create your own.

 

 

 

Give me the reference where www.bsahandbook.org is associated officially with BSA.  Until then it's just yet another 3rd party interpretation of this discussion. As far as I can tell, they hold links to BSA websites, but nothing official indicating their source of origin.  I'd be happy to entertain any references that clear this up.

 

Wow ... The quotes were right from documents that we as leaders use with our scouts.  The Patrol Leader Handbook.  The Senior Patrol Leader Handbook.  We've provided the SPL a copy of his handbook and the PLs can share the troop copy of the patrol leader handbook.  

 

As for your request for references ... It was announced in 2009 with the new version of the handbook.   

 

http://scoutingnewsroom.org/press-releases/new-boy-scout-handbook-is-21st-century-guide-for-life/ .... "For the first time, the printed Handbook is accompanied by an online site,www.bsahandbook.org, which contains expanded content and illustrations on handbook topics and advancement requirements."

 

http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2009/08/13/the-bsa-handbook-goes-digital/ ... "... the official Web site of the Boy Scout Handbook."

Edited February 18, 2016 by fred johnson

[Stosh]

 

You're right.  You as scoutmaster can work with the scouts to game the system and implement your own program.  

 

It's interesting that we are in a program to teach character and leadership and you're talking about how to get around the rules to create your own.

 

 

Since when is compliance within the rules gaming the system?

 

It is also interesting that we are in a program to teach character and leadership and it is questioned when one stays within the rules and is accused of trying to get around them to create another program because they are themselves interpreting the rules  in their own way.

[Krampus]

Since when is compliance within the rules gaming the system?

 

It is also interesting that we are in a program to teach character and leadership and it is questioned when one stays within the rules and is accused of trying to get around them to create another program because they are themselves interpreting the rules  in their own way.

 

You're right. The POR can be a project for any rank except Eagle. For Eagle, unless a Lone Scout, it must be one of the approved PORs. From the GTA 4.2.3.4.1:

 

"For Star and Life ranks only, a unit leader may assign, as a substitute for the position of responsibility, a leadership project that helps the unit. If this is done, the unit leader should consult the unit committee and unit advancement coordinator to arrive at suitable standards. The experience should provide lessons similar to those of the listed positions, but it must not be confused with, or compared to, the scope of an Eagle Scout service project. It may be productive in many cases for the Scout to propose a leadership project that is discussed with the unit leader and then 'assigned.'"

Edited February 18, 2016 by Krampus

[Eagledad]

SMs don't need to duck and weave with the guidelines if they use the program to develop character and leadership development when the scout joins the program. The problems usually rise when rank and stature become priority over character and leadership development. 

 

We used to have a member of this forum a long time ago who said ove rand over that 90 percent of the discussions on this forum are a result of adults not using the BSA program. There are plenty of literature and training courses to guide adults, and when the literature and training have gray areas, there are plenty of resources in the district and council to resolve questions.

 

As I have watched the discussions over the years, I have to agree that adult leaders create 90 percent of their problems because they don't learn and use the BSA program. And I also agree with the others that when the adults aren't running the BSA program, they have an adult run program.

 

If the SM did nothing else except guide the scouts to use the PL and SPL Handbook to run their program, they would not have this discussion. That is why I asked all Scoutmasters at Scoutmaster Specifics Courses to use those books instead of the SM Handbook. 

 

Barry

Edited February 18, 2016 by Eagledad

[Stosh]

I like the idea of using the SM project for some of the boys who would find a full troop POR overwhelming regardless of their situation.  It gives the boys a chance to try out the POR responsibilities on a patrol level on a short stint just so they can experience the situation.  If the boys know it's only for a month or so, they can put their focus in on the job and the boys in the patrol know that if the boy is struggling, it's not going to be a problem for 6 months kind of a thing.  It also gives more boys an opportunity to experience a variety of different POR's as well.  ADD, Asperger, shy and such can get a taste of the POR to try out.  If they like what they find in the POR they can then do it "for real" on the troop level when they are working on their Eagle.  Some of the boys never figure it out, but I always fall back on 6 lessons as an Instructor for the Eagle level POR.  They can teach when they are ready and the pressure to focus over 6 months time is removed and doesn't cause a hardship on the boy already busy with his Eagle project.  I have even had boys spend time Instructing the boys on their project and that counts as one of the lessons he is to instruct.

 

Whatever it takes to help the boy be successful is all I'm interested in and if that means being creative within the scope of the requirement, so be it.  Nothing more, nothing less.

[Krampus]

ADD, Asperger, shy and such can get a taste of the POR to try out.  If they like what they find in the POR they can then do it "for real" on the troop level when they are working on their Eagle.

I agree in part. We have some kids on the spectrum but they have always had PORs within the patrol (as Scout through Second Class) before taking on a larger POR. Most have done quite well in doing this and have nailed their troop-level POR.

 

Many of these guys are my best instructors.

[blw2]

I've learned that front-on charges at windmills rarely work.  Rather, it is the quiet whispers to the scouts and leaders that slowly changes the nature of a Troop.

 

Also, the Committee Chair and Committee Members are the WORST people to approach.  Chances are they haven't been trained in what Boy-Led actually is.  It is even worse if they have been with the Troop for a while and think that what has been going on is perfectly fine.

 

interesting point about the frontal approach.  Matches my experience I suppose.... frontal almost never works, while subtle rarely does....

at least it's not as "upsetting" in most cases.

 

I have I guess instinctively been doing this a little bit with an ASM and committee member that I'm closer friends with.... asking questions and "telling them about a great idea I recently read about".... stuff like that

 

What you say about committee is certainly true.  The reason in that case I was talking with the committee folks is that I'm on the committee, and we were talking about my picking up things that they are doing.

Since I'm committee instead of program, I see my .... well let's call it responsibility, is to 1) bring some program and overall BSA perspective to the committee, and 2) really focus on my advisory role to the SM and ASM's

but my real ability to affect any meaningful change is probably very slight, given my position.

[Krampus]

 

What you say about committee is certainly true.  The reason in that case I was talking with the committee folks is that I'm on the committee, and we were talking about my picking up things that they are doing.

Since I'm committee instead of program, I see my .... well let's call it responsibility, is to 1) bring some program and overall BSA perspective to the committee, and 2) really focus on my advisory role to the SM and ASM's

but my real ability to affect any meaningful change is probably very slight, given my position.

 

Don't underestimate your role. Keeping the committee's eyes on what they are supposed to be doing and OUT of the program side would be Nirvana for many SMs.

 

All too often we have TC folks getting involved in operational issues. As SMs we let the boys led. Too often when TC folks or parents show up they try to intervene. Had to pull a dad away this last weekend from his kid's patrol. He said, "I'm just talking to my kid." I had to point out that Cubs ended last year. Adults are very boring in Boy Scouts. We intervene in health and safety issues, disciplinary issues and provide advise and leadership growth input. Most of the time we sit and do our own thing.

 

You'd be welcome on my committee any day if you do all that.

[Sentinel947]

@@Hedgehog and @@blw2 what matters most is trust. Full frontal assault or more subtle techniques matter, but not as much as whether you are trusted and respected. Does the SM and the CC trust that you understand what you are talking about? Are you a person that is in the fire with them, trying to make the Troop run?  Or an outside observer who snipes but does no work? I know the two of you are, but those are general sense questions.

 

Make ally's among adults, build a consensus. It's really hard. I don't trivialize that.

 

If a newcomer proposes changes, they're a troublemaker. If a long time volunteer proposes changes, they're doing their job.

​Sentinel947

[Hedgehog]

@@Hedgehog and @@blw2 what matters most is trust. Full frontal assault or more subtle techniques matter, but not as much as whether you are trusted and respected. Does the SM and the CC trust that you understand what you are talking about? Are you a person that is in the fire with them, trying to make the Troop run?  Or an outside observer who snipes but does no work? I know the two of you are, but those are general sense questions.

 

Make ally's among adults, build a consensus. It's really hard. I don't trivialize that.

 

If a newcomer proposes changes, they're a troublemaker. If a long time volunteer proposes changes, they're doing their job.

 

​Sentinel947

 

 

You hit the nail on the head.  It is a matter of TRUST.  I joined the Troop after a stint as the Cubmaster for the Pack and knew a lot of the leaders from their time in Cub Scouts.  I also joined at a time when a number of leaders were on their way out because their son's were aging out.  I made myself helpful in supporting the new Scoutmaster by running the outdoor program and we both wanted the Troop to become more boy-led.  The parents of the boys from the Pack that crossed over with my son knew me as did the parents from the Pack that crossed over in the past three years.  Parents from other Packs learned to trust me because I knew the program and knew the outdoor skils (don't underestimate the level of trust it takes to send an 11 year old camping by themselves without a parent).  I've been preaching how wonderful boy-led is to the new parents and especially the new ASMs.  I can sincerely smile and say to a parent who arrives at the end of a meeting, "there is a certain beauty to the chaos of a boy-led troop."  As a result, I've been able to make the small changes.  The bigger changes, well, aren't bigger changes just a series of smaller changes put together?

[blw2]

yes, trust.

It's a funny thing in a way though, because sometimes knowledge does not inspire trust.  i see this a lot in scouts.

If a person with a lot of experience &/or knowledge works with someone without knowledge but experience in doing it the "wrong" way, that experienced person is looked at like he or she has three eyes!  even if the situation is not at all confrontational and is very friendly. 

 

A person with firm ideas is not so easy to sway....

[Eagledad]

Trust comes at the price of time and integrity. Sometimes a new scout wanted to be the patrol leader his first year and struggled because his patrol wouldn't elect him. I encouraged him by explaining that he needed to "earn" the trust of his patrol by making good decisions over time. Good decisions can mean supporting the present leadership and working hard for the patrol.

 

Most Scoutmasters got that responsibility through hard work supporting the previous Scoutmaster.

 

Barry

[Hedgehog]

Most Scoutmasters got that responsibility through hard work supporting the previous Scoutmaster.

 

 

I was afraid that might be the case.