Do your scouts have patrol level POR's?

[John-in-KC]

 

 

and I suppose you would do taht without consideration to that particular scout's situation?

Remember, one role of the District Eagle Board of Review, or the District Eagle Guest at a unit Eagle Board of Review, is to ensure the BSA Standard of what comprises an Eagle Scout is met.

 

I did not, in my initial post, say deny.  I do not use that word now.  I used the word adjourn.  The matter I cited is one where the adults may have failed to implement the Advancement and Leadership Development Methods to standard.  That is a matter for the District Advancement Operating Committee, the Commissioner Service, and the Professional Service, not a single Eagle Guest, or even an Eagle Board Chair.  I want the Scout to achieve Eagle, no matter how the adults screwed it up.  I also want the brand upheld.  It's like being a Range Officer.  Stop, assess, correct and retrain as/if needed, and finally resume.

 

My thoughts.

Edited February 17, 2016 by John-in-KC

[fred johnson]

Fred:

 

The guide to advancement provides that some positions can be held by more than one member:

 

4.2.3.4.1 Positions Must Be Chosen From Among Those Listed. The position must be listed in the position of responsibility requirement shown in the most current edition of Boy Scout Requirements. Since more than one member may hold some positions—“instructor,†for example—it is expected that even very large units are able to provide sufficient opportunities within the list.

 

So in a troop with 50 scouts, what is the problem with having four Troop Guides, four Troop Scribes and four Troop Instructors or even four Troop Quartermasters? 

 

There is no problem with multiple in each position.  The issue is when it is solely patrol focused.  It would be especially an issue if like SPL appointing Scribe and librarian, the patrol leader appointed the patrol scribe and patrol librarian.  There is no credit for patrol level positions lower than PL.

[fred johnson]

WWW.BSAHANDBOOK.ORG is BSA's online presentation of the boy scout handbook.  They've been growing it for a while and the PDF file was BSA authored and published.

[fred johnson]

The SPL, PL, and TROOP Scribe all get credit by your definition.... even when they are in a troop of 3 scouts total.

While a the patrol scribe in a patrol of say 12 Scouts doesn't count? 

 

come on... get real.

 

I agree with your frustration, but that's the BSA structure.  Just be careful with the Eagle rank as that is visible during the EBOR.

[fred johnson]

While a First Class Scout, serve actively in your unit for four months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility*** (or carry out a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project to help the unit):

 

Boy Scout troop. Patrol leader, assistant senior patrol leader, senior patrol leader, Venture patrol leader, troop guide, Order of the Arrow troop representative, den chief, scribe, librarian, historian, quartermaster, bugler, junior assistant Scoutmaster, chaplain aide, instructor, troop Webmaster, or Leave No Trace trainer.

 

 

From the requirements, other than Troop Guide, which of these POR's indicate they are troop level only?

 

We're getting into deeper semantics.  ... but the quote right above your post lays it out.

 

The following leadership positions count toward Boy Scout advancement. For more information, see the Senior Patrol Leader Handbook (#32501) and Patrol Leader Handbook (#32502A).

 

Scribe - The scribe is the troop’s secretary. Though not a voting member, he attends meetings

of the patrol leaders’ council and keeps a record of the discussions. He cooperates with

the patrol scribes to record attendance and dues payments at troop meetings and to

maintain troop advancement records. A member of the troop committee may assist him

with his work.

 

 

None of this is new.  It's how BSA laid it out a long time ago.  

[fred johnson]

Stosh:

Boy Scout troop.

 

That's what it says.  It does not say Patrol. 

 

I've been trained as a District Guest Eagle BOR rep.  Rest assured, if in an EBOR, the Scout tells me he's served only in a Patrol position of responsibility at First Class, Star, or Life, I am going to:

- Adjourn the BOR, to be re-opened at a later time...

- Contact the COR.  Inform him the Scout's EBOR is on hold due to no fault on his part.  Ask him to timely get the Unit Key 3 together with their Commissioner.

- Contact the District Commissioner.  Inform him of the issue in the Advancement Method, and let him provide Commissioner support to the unit.

- Contact the District Advancement Chairman.  Report what I've done, and recommend he continue this EBOR at the proper time.

- Contact the DE.  Ditto.

- Contact the Council Advancement (Professional Service) Adviser, unless the DE offers to do that for me.  Ditto.

 

If I am chairing a District level EBOR, all of the above, although I suspect several of the above-mentioned folk will be very near to hand.

 

BSA invests a tremendous amount into the Eagle Scout brand.  The boy is not responsible for what has happened.  The District Advancement Chairs I know will, at the proper moment, continue the board ... although they may well move it to all District level board.  The adults who fail to correctly employ the BSA Program (remember, that is what the Charter authorizes the partner to do ... use the program correctly) will get some retraining, and that unit will most likely get some Council overwatch.

 

Agreed.  That is what I have seen too.  And I agree, it's not the scout's fault in this type of situation and I am sure the district representatives will try to make the situation whole.   Depending on the situation, one of many resolutions can occur including asking the scout to complete the position or getting a waiver if the scout does not have time left.  But, it can be an issue.

[fred johnson]

Every one keeps pointing to EAGLE BOR's and that is a whole different animal altogether.  There, the special projects option is off the table  So I usually just have the Eagle candidate slap on an Instructor patch and have him teach a half dozen or so classes to the younger boys.  It's not a deal breaker by any means, and it's no big deal to get the requirement fulfilled.

 

Eagle BOR's are not special.  We are discussing EBORs because there is no risk with lower level BORs unless your troop has a troop BOR member who doesn't agree with the troop's alternative implementation.  

 

EBORs are just where the issue can become a show stopper.

[Stosh]

Eagle BOR's are not special.  We are discussing EBORs because there is no risk with lower level BORs unless your troop has a troop BOR member who doesn't agree with the troop's alternative implementation.  

 

EBORs are just where the issue can become a show stopper.

 

As mentioned before, a patrol scribe is a special SM project for one month, a patrol QM for a month, a patrol Chaplain Aide for one month, etc. all adding up to the requisite number of months of POR.  And if I read it correctly there is no time tenure needed for a SM project.  So that takes care of Star and Life.  Eagle, 6 month tenure as Instructor doing a once a month class for the younger boys.  Discussion over.

 

Give me the reference where www.bsahandbook.org is associated officially with BSA.  Until then it's just yet another 3rd party interpretation of this discussion. As far as I can tell, they hold links to BSA websites, but nothing official indicating their source of origin.  I'd be happy to entertain any references that clear this up.

[TAHAWK]

Patrol positios  other than PL are not POR positions according to B.S.A.

 

 

Here is http://www.bsahandbook.org/site.  Notice it is identified as a "BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA" site.

 

If you look here  http://webstarratings.com/whois-dns/bsahandbook.org/ you will see 

 

Domain Name:BSAHANDBOOK.ORG
Domain ID:
D150608087-LROR
Creation Date: 2008-01-10T19:40:22Z
Updated
Date: 2013-12-09T10:03:12Z
Registry Expiry Date:
2016-01-10T19:40:22Z
Sponsoring Registrar:MarkMonitor Inc.
(R37-LROR)
Sponsoring Registrar IANA ID: 292
WHOIS
Server:
Referral URL:
Domain Status: clientDeleteProhibited --
http://www.icann.org/epp#clientDeleteProhibited
Domain Status:
clientTransferProhibited --
http://www.icann.org/epp#clientTransferProhibited
Domain Status:
clientUpdateProhibited --
http://www.icann.org/epp#clientUpdateProhibited
Registrant
ID:mmr-116910
Registrant Name:David Kerley
Registrant
Organization:Boy Scouts of America
Registrant Street: 1325 W.
Walnut Hill Lane
Registrant City:Irving
Registrant
State/Province:TX

 

The problem with making up your own rules as you go along is that other people who do that invented the adult-run troop method, not to mention other things you dislike.

[Sentinel947]

As mentioned before, a patrol scribe is a special SM project for one month, a patrol QM for a month, a patrol Chaplain Aide for one month, etc. all adding up to the requisite number of months of POR.  And if I read it correctly there is no time tenure needed for a SM project.  So that takes care of Star and Life.  Eagle, 6 month tenure as Instructor doing a once a month class for the younger boys.  Discussion over.

 

Give me the reference where www.bsahandbook.org is associated officially with BSA.  Until then it's just yet another 3rd party interpretation of this discussion. As far as I can tell, they hold links to BSA websites, but nothing official indicating their source of origin.  I'd be happy to entertain any references that clear this up.

I'm pretty sure it's a moot point for Stosh's Troop. He's got one patrol. Therefore a Patrol QM is a "troop QM". Otherwise, His Troop can only have one POR at a time, Patrol Leader. 

[Krampus]

Give me the reference where www.bsahandbook.org is associated officially with BSA.  Until then it's just yet another 3rd party interpretation of this discussion. As far as I can tell, they hold links to BSA websites, but nothing official indicating their source of origin.  I'd be happy to entertain any references that clear this up.

 

Here's the whois lookup. Type in the URL and you can get all the info. It is owned by BSA.

[Eagledad]

I'm pretty sure it's a moot point for Stosh's Troop. He's got one patrol. Therefore a Patrol QM is a "troop QM". Otherwise, His Troop can only have one POR at a time, Patrol Leader. 

Yes, but the "shoot first ask questions later" approach is a dangerous way of running a troop and can set the scouts up for disappointment. Asking the District Advancement chairman and District Commissioner clears these things up quickly. I've called them many times looking for help on advancement with handicapped scouts. They always gave us an easy solution in writing. 

 

Barry

[Sentinel947]

Yes, but the "shoot first ask questions later" approach is a dangerous way of running a troop and can set the scouts up for disappointment. Asking the District Advancement chairman and District Commissioner clears these things up quickly. I've called them many times looking for help on advancement with handicapped scouts. They always gave us an easy solution in writing. 

 

Barry

I agree. 

[blw2]

Step 1 - Have the boys (SPL / PLs ) pass out the permission slips and announce the outings.

Step 2 - Have the boys collect the permission slips and checks and make a list of who has a slip and who paid.

Step 3 - Have the boys give you the checks with a list of who is deducting payment from a scout account.

Step 4 - Verify what the boys give you (turning each check on their list to an X).  This provides a paper trail in case a scout says they turned in a check or permission slip and you don't have it.

Step 5 - Have the boys give the adult leader going on the outing the permission slips (we keep them with us on the outings)

 

It took our troop about 2 years to implement this proceedure.  Start off subtlely -- ask the SPL/PLs to do this as a favor to you the first time.  If you make it seem like it is a major change in the direction of the troop, people will question your sanity (tried that... it failed admist choruses of "you don't want boys handling checks").  If you do it once out of necessity and it works, you can do it a second time.  By the third or fourth time, people forget that the adults ever handled it.

 

Oh boy, I have already heard that chorus singing loud!  I only barely broached the topic so far once with the CC and a couple other committee members present... really just feeling it out about how much they have used the scouts in the past.... "Oh, no... we don't want to do that.  This is real money we're talking about!"

 

I love your outline and suggestion.  Exactly what i was hoping for!

 

I mean no offense to them.... I think it's a very natural and logical response, and one taht is very tough for some folks to let go of....

Often I think it's only because i'm interested enough to spend some time thinking it through, that i'm able to grasp some of this concept.  So many scouters seem to show up to the meeting, almost not having thought about scouting since the last meeting adjourned.  In the heat of a meeting (Troop or committee), it doesn't really give time for a parent to digest the concepts here, and how silly some of this helicoptering really is!

[Hedgehog]

So to summarize....

 

A POR needs to be a Troop Level position except for the Patrol Leader and Scoutmaster approved projects for non-Eagle ranks.

 

There can be multiple Troop Level positions for jobs such as Quartermaster, Instructor, Etc. based on the needs of the Troop.

 

The key is that the Scout actually takes responsibility.

 

Got it.