Do your scouts have patrol level POR's?

[Stosh]

It's supposed to be a lesson in being responsible for something beyond themselves.

 

​Leadership is a goal of the program, but not exclusively the goal of POR's.

Totally agree, but being responsible for a job and being responsible for another person's welfare are two different entities.  It's a lot easier to teach people how to do a job (management) but don't assume that it entails any lessons in leadership.  So, if leadership is the goal of the program, why is everyone assuming that POR's promote that goal?  Being responsible for paperwork doesn't necessitate anyone else.  Being responsible for equipment/gear doesn't necessitate anyone else.  Both jobs can be done by a single person and no one to lead.  End of the requirement, check the box and move on.

 

Take a look at the example of the other thread.  Boy does his Eagle project to show leadership (explicitly stated in the requirement).  He gets the job done but omits the SM from the communication loop.  Sure, he got the job done, but a serious lapse in leadership by not taking care of his SM as part of the leadership of the project.

[MattR]

Totally agree, but being responsible for a job and being responsible for another person's welfare are two different entities. 

Can't a scout take care of another scout while also taking care of a job? Isn't that really the challenge we all have? We have to get paid, buy groceries, fix the toilet ... and at the same time care for our family, colleagues, and community. We have to take care of the tasks, we choose whether to take care of the people. Character seems to be reflected best in those that do both. So the QM can take care of the gear while also showing a new scout how to fold a tent. He could have just yelled at the new scout but instead he took the time to do it right. Done right, the QM will have a big impact on the new scout. He took care of the scout. I see it all the time. I ask every eagle scout who he remembered when he first joined and I hear lots of stories about kind, helpful older scouts.

[Stosh]

Leadership can be affixed to the POR, but it isn't required for it.  A boy can do leadership on just about anything he wants, but again, the advancement requirement doesn't say it's necessary.

[Eagledad]

Totally agree, but being responsible for a job and being responsible for another person's welfare are two different entities.  It's a lot easier to teach people how to do a job (management) but don't assume that it entails any lessons in leadership.  So, if leadership is the goal of the program, why is everyone assuming that POR's promote that goal?  Being responsible for paperwork doesn't necessitate anyone else.  Being responsible for equipment/gear doesn't necessitate anyone else.  Both jobs can be done by a single person and no one to lead.  End of the requirement, check the box and move on..

Leadership and management growth are up to the SM. It seems we need to say it a lot here lately, the personality of the troop program typically represents the personality of its SM. One personal opinion does not dictate the right or wrong of other troops. It's hard enough getting leaders to understand the goal of building character, much less confusing them more with personal theories of the details.

 

The BSA has laid out what scouts must do to meet requirements. You said yourself that as an adult you would assign a scout to train a few scouts just to get his Eagle. I'm not sure the actions of teaching skills counts as real leadership or growth either, but even you are using the system within the BSA guidelines to get what you want.

 

If a SM learns and uses the materials the BSA provides, at the very minimum a scout is likely to grow from the experience. That is what we all want. If A SM wants a scout to grow more specifically torward leadership skills (however you want to define it), the SM can guide the scout's experience more that direction. I certainly did. But first the SM just needs to know what the BSA is asking within the guidiences they provide. Then if thats not enough, the SM can guide their program to enhance the experience provided the actions of the experience are not out of bounds of the requirements.

 

Very simple really, but SMs should know the minimums expected of them, especially if the want scouts to become Eagle.

 

Barry

[Hedgehog]

@@John-in-KC and @Eagledad:

 

I'm honestly looking for an answer to my questions.

 

Can there be more than one Instructor in a Troop?  GTA seems to say yes.

 

Can there be more than one Quartermaster in a troop?

 

Can there be more than Troop Guide?

Edited February 17, 2016 by Hedgehog

[Eagledad]

@@John-in-KC and @Eagledad:

 

I'm honestly looking for an answer to my questions.

 

Can there be more than one Instructor in a Troop?  GTA seems to say yes.

 

Can there be more than one Quartermaster in a troop?

 

Can there be more than Troop Guide?

Yes.

 

However, I learned to make sure the scouts agree that the additional positions are needed because have to manage them.

 

Barry

[Stosh]

If I were to be quite honest about the whole thing, the only position I would not count twice would be SPL.  If one has a large troop and has multiple NSP's I would think 1 TG might not be enough.  I'm thinking with larger groups more QM's would be needed.  Simply for management efficiency, not even any leadership, the PL can't be the only one in the know about what is going on in his patrol.  I would definitely have a patrol QM, but even then with 8 patrols, that would be quite the handful for the "troop" QM to handle with that much equipment to be responsible for.  Maybe some of that responsibility needs to be retained on the patrol level just for logistics sake.  In a large group maybe multiple ASPL's would be needed. 

 

On a practical level, maybe just one WebMaster, and one Bugler, but if one has 2-3 feeder packs multiple DC and WDC would be in order as well.

 

Flip the coin over to the other side and I don't think there is much need for an SPL/ASPL team when one has just a couple of patrols.  I don't think a small troop needs a Bugler and maybe not a Librarian, but if the boy in a small troop is looking for a POR for advancement, I would have the boy who's a GrubMaster for the patrol, do a handful of cooking classes for the boys, work with the new boys getting menus together and teaching them how to shop while wearing the Instructor patch on his shirt isn't going to raise any eyebrows come EBOR time.

 

What it boils down to is some common sense.  One doesn't want to be short on real leadership for the unit, but then one doesn't want all chiefs and no Indians either.  (Sorry for the ethnic colloquialism, just pretend it's an O/A thingy)

Edited February 17, 2016 by Stosh

[TAHAWK]

Don' know about PORs, but as a patrol is supposed to be a "team," the members of a team usually have a role to play - a position.  

 

"The patrol leader learns about the abilities of other patrol members and full involves them in patrol and troop activities by assigning them specific tasks and responsibilities." B.S.A., Patrol Leader's Handbook.

 

"The following leadership positions with a patrol can make the patrol more effective and fun"

 

Assistant Patrol Leader ...

Patrol Scribe ...

Patrol Quartermaster ...

Patrol Grubmaster ...

Patrol Cheermaster "

 

 

Id.

[blw2]

related to this, as I'm getting the treasurer responsibilities passed off to me, I learned that they currently tie event permission slips to the treasurer job.  Basically it' to make things a bit more streamlined since the treasurer is confirming that they paid, so they just note on the permission slips if the scout paid, or if it's coming out of their scout account.

It makes a little sense

but

it's very adult involved

 

I was really tempted to just say no at the outset.  I'll take the payment, but I'm not going to wear the hat of the outdoor activity chair too!  But since that position is apparently vacant, and currently shared by several folks....

I figured I'd move forward in the spirit of cooperation

but at the same time, I see that this is certainly a job that a scout could do and plan to push it back to the scouts

 

so perhaps a patrol scribe.  It's up to the scouts to decide if they want to do it that way, or just lat the PL do it, or someone else....

[Stosh]

One would think that if a patrol was managerial efficient, the PL's would be making a concerted effort to get organized and have his people working together "as a team" (as mentioned).

 

Over the years I have found that a member of the group feels more "valuable" to the group if they have a reason to be.  GrubMaster is a valued patrol member as it the PL and APL (maybe, if he's actually functioning as one).  Same for even the Chaplain Aide.  QM and Scribe.  Besides feeling like a valuable contributor, a necessary part of the patrol, they are also busy enough to stay out of trouble as well. 

 

I think it's a lot easier to blow off attendance at an event if one doesn't feel like they are a valuable part of the group and will be needed to make everything work smoothly.  Every time someone say, Joey can't make it, no big deal, there's a serious problem in the esprit de corps in that patrol.  Obviously the PL isn't doing leadership and taking care of his people at this point.  So what JOB should Joey be managing?  Anything's better than nothing.  I think that GBB also had a CheerMaster and ActivityMaster as part of his patrol structure.  If nothing else, make something up, give it a title, and don't worry about it.  When it comes to servant leadership, the water boy is one of the strongest leaders on the team, he keeps everyone else hydrated and on their feet, he takes care of his boys.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Stosh

[Krampus]

@@John-in-KC and @Eagledad:

 

I'm honestly looking for an answer to my questions.

 

Can there be more than one Instructor in a Troop?  GTA seems to say yes.

 

Can there be more than one Quartermaster in a troop?

 

Can there be more than Troop Guide?

 

 

Yes.

 

However, I learned to make sure the scouts agree that the additional positions are needed because have to manage them.

 

Barry

 

Right @@barry. And there are times you may "flex" up or down in the number of these positions based on need...or scout desire to fill them.

[Sentinel947]

@@John-in-KC and @Eagledad:

 

I'm honestly looking for an answer to my questions.

 

Can there be more than one Instructor in a Troop?  GTA seems to say yes.

 

Can there be more than one Quartermaster in a troop?

 

Can there be more than Troop Guide?

Yes. 

[Hedgehog]

related to this, as I'm getting the treasurer responsibilities passed off to me, I learned that they currently tie event permission slips to the treasurer job.  Basically it' to make things a bit more streamlined since the treasurer is confirming that they paid, so they just note on the permission slips if the scout paid, or if it's coming out of their scout account. It makes a little sense but it's very adult involved

 

I was really tempted to just say no at the outset.  I'll take the payment, but I'm not going to wear the hat of the outdoor activity chair too!  But since that position is apparently vacant, and currently shared by several folks....

 

I figured I'd move forward in the spirit of cooperation but at the same time, I see that this is certainly a job that a scout could do and plan to push it back to the scouts

 

so perhaps a patrol scribe.  It's up to the scouts to decide if they want to do it that way, or just lat the PL do it, or someone else....

 

 

Step 1 - Have the boys (SPL / PLs ) pass out the permission slips and announce the outings.

Step 2 - Have the boys collect the permission slips and checks and make a list of who has a slip and who paid.

Step 3 - Have the boys give you the checks with a list of who is deducting payment from a scout account.

Step 4 - Verify what the boys give you (turning each check on their list to an X).  This provides a paper trail in case a scout says they turned in a check or permission slip and you don't have it.

Step 5 - Have the boys give the adult leader going on the outing the permission slips (we keep them with us on the outings)

 

It took our troop about 2 years to implement this proceedure.  Start off subtlely -- ask the SPL/PLs to do this as a favor to you the first time.  If you make it seem like it is a major change in the direction of the troop, people will question your sanity (tried that... it failed admist choruses of "you don't want boys handling checks").  If you do it once out of necessity and it works, you can do it a second time.  By the third or fourth time, people forget that the adults ever handled it.

[Eagledad]

Step 1 - Have the boys (SPL / PLs ) pass out the permission slips and announce the outings.

Step 2 - Have the boys collect the permission slips and checks and make a list of who has a slip and who paid.

Step 3 - Have the boys give you the checks with a list of who is deducting payment from a scout account.

Step 4 - Verify what the boys give you (turning each check on their list to an X).  This provides a paper trail in case a scout says they turned in a check or permission slip and you don't have it.

Step 5 - Have the boys give the adult leader going on the outing the permission slips (we keep them with us on the outings)

 

It took our troop about 2 years to implement this proceedure.  Start off subtlely -- ask the SPL/PLs to do this as a favor to you the first time.  If you make it seem like it is a major change in the direction of the troop, people will question your sanity (tried that... it failed admist choruses of "you don't want boys handling checks").  If you do it once out of necessity and it works, you can do it a second time.  By the third or fourth time, people forget that the adults ever handled it.

Wow! This is the kind of stuff we come to get on this forum. 

 

Barry

[John-in-KC]

@@John-in-KC and @Eagledad:

 

I'm honestly looking for an answer to my questions.

 

Can there be more than one Instructor in a Troop?  GTA seems to say yes.

 

Can there be more than one Quartermaster in a troop?

 

Can there be more than Troop Guide?

Yes, Yes, and Yes.

 

In a multi-patrol troop, they are responsible to the SPL/ASPL.  In a single patrol troop, they are responsible to the PL.

 

Think about it.   Your unit is fortunate enough to have not one but two full patrols of Scouts come over.  Even using the more traditional method of integrating them into existing patrols, why would you want only one older youth to be a mentor?  When training using EDGE, why would you not want small groups for instruction, requiring more Instructors???

Edited February 17, 2016 by John-in-KC