Do your scouts have patrol level POR's?

[Eagledad]

The following leadership positions count toward Boy Scout advancement. For more information, see the Senior Patrol Leader Handbook (#32501) and Patrol Leader Handbook (#32502A).

 

Scribe

The scribe is the troop’s secretary. Though not a voting member, he attends meetings

of the patrol leaders’ council and keeps a record of the discussions. He cooperates with

the patrol scribes to record attendance and dues payments at troop meetings and to

maintain troop advancement records. A member of the troop committee may assist him

with his work.

Edited February 16, 2016 by Eagledad

[Stosh]

While a First Class Scout, serve actively in your unit for four months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility*** (or carry out a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project to help the unit):

Boy Scout troop. Patrol leader, assistant senior patrol leader, senior patrol leader, Venture patrol leader, troop guide, Order of the Arrow troop representative, den chief, scribe, librarian, historian, quartermaster, bugler, junior assistant Scoutmaster, chaplain aide, instructor, troop Webmaster, or Leave No Trace trainer.

 

 

From the requirements, other than Troop Guide, which of these POR's indicate they are troop level only?

[qwazse]

While a First Class Scout, serve actively in your unit for four months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility*** (or carry out a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project to help the unit):

 

Boy Scout troop. Patrol leader, assistant senior patrol leader, senior patrol leader, Venture patrol leader, troop guide, Order of the Arrow troop representative, den chief, scribe, librarian, historian, quartermaster, bugler, junior assistant Scoutmaster, chaplain aide, instructor, troop Webmaster, or Leave No Trace trainer.

 

 

From the requirements, other than Troop Guide, which of these POR's indicate they are troop level only?

Troop Webmaster?

 

Even so, back in my day, there were several guys who knew how to get garden spiders to crank out the silk!

Edited February 16, 2016 by qwazse

[Eagledad]

From the requirements, other than Troop Guide, which of these POR's indicate they are troop level only?

The District Commissioner and DE can help clear it up. 

 

Barry

[John-in-KC]

Stosh:

Boy Scout troop.

 

That's what it says.  It does not say Patrol. 

 

I've been trained as a District Guest Eagle BOR rep.  Rest assured, if in an EBOR, the Scout tells me he's served only in a Patrol position of responsibility at First Class, Star, or Life, I am going to:
- Adjourn the BOR, to be re-opened at a later time...
- Contact the COR.  Inform him the Scout's EBOR is on hold due to no fault on his part.  Ask him to timely get the Unit Key 3 together with their Commissioner.

- Contact the District Commissioner.  Inform him of the issue in the Advancement Method, and let him provide Commissioner support to the unit.

- Contact the District Advancement Chairman.  Report what I've done, and recommend he continue this EBOR at the proper time.

- Contact the DE.  Ditto.

- Contact the Council Advancement (Professional Service) Adviser, unless the DE offers to do that for me.  Ditto.

If I am chairing a District level EBOR, all of the above, although I suspect several of the above-mentioned folk will be very near to hand.

 

BSA invests a tremendous amount into the Eagle Scout brand.  The boy is not responsible for what has happened.  The District Advancement Chairs I know will, at the proper moment, continue the board ... although they may well move it to all District level board.  The adults who fail to correctly employ the BSA Program (remember, that is what the Charter authorizes the partner to do ... use the program correctly) will get some retraining, and that unit will most likely get some Council overwatch.

Edited February 16, 2016 by John-in-KC

[John-in-KC]

qwazse,

 

Troop Webmaster came into the mix several years ago as a formal POR.

[qwazse]

@@John-in-KC

 

qwazse,

 

Troop Webmaster came into the mix several years ago as a formal POR.

Yes, I can almost remember the day we announced it to our scouts and the glint that appeared in some of their geeky little eyes!

 

But, more seriously ... at the BoR, why don't you just ask the scout what he did in that position? I mean, if as patrol scribe he tracked $40,000 in funds for the patrols H/A budget, filed tour plans that only needed the SM's signature, pushed the guys' paperwork for multiple service projects, training expeditions, etc ... hasn't he fulfilled the spirit of the requirement?

[Stosh]

@@John-in-KC

 

Yes, I can almost remember the day we announced it to our scouts and the glint that appeared in some of their geeky little eyes!

 

But, more seriously ... at the BoR, why don't you just ask the scout what he did in that position? I mean, if as patrol scribe he tracked $40,000 in funds for the patrols H/A budget, filed tour plans that only needed the SM's signature, pushed the guys' paperwork for multiple service projects, training expeditions, etc ... hasn't he fulfilled the spirit of the requirement?

 

Many, many, many times I have seen a patrol POR do more work than a troop POR.  Too often the troop POR uses that opportunity to sit back and make the patrol guys do all the work.

 

But then I have promoted the idea that the "troop" POR's are support personnel for the Patrol POR because in the Patrol Method, the patrols is where all the action is taking place anyway.  A patrol Grubmaster needs two Dutch ovens for Saturday night's dinner, he works with the patrol QM to come up with them.  The patrol QM makes contact with the troop QM who takes two DO's off the shelf hands them to him which he takes responsibility for getting them to the GrubMaster and then makes sure they get cleaned up and takes them back and hands them to the troop QM.... who puts them back on the shelf.  So, who does the real work????. 

 

So I'll sit in on any BOR and back up my boys and their POR's.

 

Every one keeps pointing to EAGLE BOR's and that is a whole different animal altogether.  There, the special projects option is off the table  So I usually just have the Eagle candidate slap on an Instructor patch and have him teach a half dozen or so classes to the younger boys.  It's not a deal breaker by any means, and it's no big deal to get the requirement fulfilled.

 

So if any of my boys wish to do a SM special project by doing a variety of different POR's, or doing a POR on a patrol level, that's fine with me.  They show they have done the work, they get the credit.

Edited February 16, 2016 by Stosh

[Sentinel947]

My troop does use optional Patrol Positions like Patrol Grubmaster or Quartermaster. They are assigned by method to be decided by the patrol.

​They do not count as POR's for Rank Advancement. John in KC is correct in what I've learned, observed and taught about the BSA's position on rank advancement and POR's

​Sentinel947

[MattR]

Sentinel, and I guess everyone else that has patrol pors, how do you encourage the patrols to use these pors? I keep suggesting them and the scouts don't see any benefit, or maybe they see the benefit but don't want to put in the effort. Some of them will create positions for a campout but that's it. They still manage their own gear, buy food, and all that, but they just can't grasp the benefit of divying up the work ahead of time.

[Krampus]

APL, scribe and QM. They train at the patrol level to understand the higher roles. It also allows young scouts to get a leadership taste.

[blw2]

.....

So in a troop with 50 scouts, what is the problem with having four Troop Guides, four Troop Scribes and four Troop Instructors or even four Troop Quartermasters? 

or even 7?

 

Stosh:

Boy Scout troop.

 

That's what it says.  It does not say Patrol. 

 

I've been trained as a District Guest Eagle BOR rep.  Rest assured, if in an EBOR, the Scout tells me he's served only in a Patrol position of responsibility at First Class, Star, or Life, I am going to:

- Adjourn the BOR, to be re-opened at a later time...

- Contact the COR.  Inform him the Scout's EBOR is on hold due to no fault on his part.  Ask him to timely get the Unit Key 3 together with their Commissioner.

- Contact the District Commissioner.  Inform him of the issue in the Advancement Method, and let him provide Commissioner support to the unit.

- Contact the District Advancement Chairman.  Report what I've done, and recommend he continue this EBOR at the proper time.

- Contact the DE.  Ditto.

- Contact the Council Advancement (Professional Service) Adviser, unless the DE offers to do that for me.  Ditto.

 

.....

and I suppose you would do taht without consideration to that particular scout's situation?

Wouldn't it be just a wee bit better to find out first, if it was a position of responsibility?

Perhaps that scout who's day you just ruined happened to work in a patrol, as qwazse described below....

and the next scout that comes through and you allowed to continue happened to be a troop level POR... in a troop of two scouts that met once every 6 weeks and camped every couple of months?

    now I know it's an exaggeration, but it illustrates a point....

 

@@John-in-KC

 

Yes, I can almost remember the day we announced it to our scouts and the glint that appeared in some of their geeky little eyes!

 

But, more seriously ... at the BoR, why don't you just ask the scout what he did in that position? I mean, if as patrol scribe he tracked $40,000 in funds for the patrols H/A budget, filed tour plans that only needed the SM's signature, pushed the guys' paperwork for multiple service projects, training expeditions, etc ... hasn't he fulfilled the spirit of the requirement?

EXACTLY!

 

APL, scribe and QM. They train at the patrol level to understand the higher roles. It also allows young scouts to get a leadership taste.

 On the otherhand, this might, maybe, be a case where you might want to ask more questions.  If it was a light weight position of training only.... then ok, yeah, i see your point @@John-in-KC

[Sentinel947]

or even 7?

 

and I suppose you would do taht without consideration to that particular scout's situation?

Wouldn't it be just a wee bit better to find out first, if it was a position of responsibility?

Perhaps that scout who's day you just ruined happened to work in a patrol, as qwazse described below....

and the next scout that comes through and you allowed to continue happened to be a troop level POR... in a troop of two scouts that met once every 6 weeks and camped every couple of months?

    now I know it's an exaggeration, but it illustrates a point....

 

EXACTLY!

 

 On the otherhand, this might, maybe, be a case where you might want to ask more questions.  If it was a light weight position of training only.... then ok, yeah, i see your point @@John-in-KC

​

 

Guide to Advancement. Page 26. 4.2.3.4. "Positions must be chosen from among those listed."

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf

 

While I agree in principle that a Patrol level POR may make an excellent leadership opportunity, it doesn't count for BSA requirements. Not all good things in life "count". Somethings in life that "count" don't matter.

 

​Sentinel947

[Stosh]

I don't think BSA calls them Positions of Leadership, I think they call them Positions of Responsibility.  One does not need to be a leader to get credit for it.  Just be responsible for getting the job done. Getting the job done can be done by intimidation and coercion and some will still call it leadership. But... no one has to follow, just do the job..... or else.  It's a lesson in following directions, not following leaders.

[Sentinel947]

I don't think BSA calls them Positions of Leadership, I think they call them Positions of Responsibility.  One does not need to be a leader to get credit for it.  Just be responsible for getting the job done. Getting the job done can be done by intimidation and coercion and some will still call it leadership. But... no one has to follow, just do the job..... or else.  It's a lesson in following directions, not following leaders.

 

It's supposed to be a lesson in being responsible for something beyond themselves.

 

​Leadership is a goal of the program, but not exclusively the goal of POR's.