Do your scouts have patrol level POR's?

[blw2]

Interesting consideration... advancement concerns.

 

I wasn't even thinking along those lines in my question.

oh, and by POR in this context I wasn't thinking PL/APL as of course each patrol would have that.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of the patrol as a working team.... efficiency and all of that.

and the support positions 

and perhaps having it by more or less fixed roster instead of a rotating thing.

such as fixed positions for some term... 3 months, 6 months, whatever...

 

Jimmy is the QM. His job is to work and coordinate with the Troop's QM.  Make sure that the camp kitchen hardware is properly stocked, cleaned, and in serviceable condition, as required for an upcoming event.  that we have the necessary ropes and other stuff we need for the planned activity.  If something is amiss, he would be in charge of coordinating through the PL a work party to square away the issue.

 

Tim, now he is working on his cooking skills, so for the next x number of months, he will be our Grubmaster, in charge of doing or at least over seeing the stocking of the pantry and such, making sure that since the patrol wanted to make tortellini alfredo, that we have the necessary cream, butter, cheese, etc. on the shopping list.  Making sure that the QM knows we need a big pot + a skillet..  He might not necessarily be doing 100% of the cooking, but he will be overseeing it... like a head chef in a kitchen

 

Now Tom, he really stepped up this round. He's scribe in charge of notes, dues, attendance, and so on.... only because nobody else wanted to do.

 

and so on....

[qwazse]

I'm not gonna tell you how to run your troop and what to count and not count. Just gonna reiterate ...

That's a really important discussion to have at the 1st class SMC and BoR.

Ad far as I'm concerned, boys can read. Ask them what they want to do for their PoR.

Edited February 15, 2016 by qwazse

[Hedgehog]

If the scout is doing the work, he gets the POR credit.  

 

 

Stosh:

 

We're on the same page.  There also is the "or carry out a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project to help the unit" which could be any leadership position.

 

What is important is that the boys actually "serve" and not just "hold" a position of responsibility.  I've seen my son lead more on a patrol level and a troop level as an Assistant Patrol Leader than others with the Patrol Leader or SPL / ASPL badges.  

[SSScout]

Back in the pre dawn of Scouting, working on my Stegosaurus Husbandry Merit Badge (when you earned Eagle, it was a REAL Eagle, and you had to catch it yourself....), I remember that each Patrol was expected to have it's own PL (elected,), APL (chosen by consensus, who else didn't want it)  Treasurer (collected the weekly dues, some of which went to the Troop treasurer, helped organize paying for campout grub, bought Patrol equipment),  Scribe (filled out forms for camping trips, kept what small records we had) and Quartermster.  No Troop property, it was Patrol stuff or personal stuff.  It might be kept in the Troop closet at the church, or in the basement corner of the QM's basement, but it was marked with a Patrol name first, not the Troop number. All of these had to make a small report at each Patrol Meeting, sometimes before the Troop meeting, sometimes on a sunday afternoon in somebody's rec room or back yard. I was Patrol Treasurer for a time,  I had a pipe tobacco zippered bag that held the Patrols funds, maybe  ten or twelve dollars at time. More if we were about to buy food for a trip, or tickets to a movie.  And I was Quartermaster for a time. Nested cook sets, tents, wow.  

I guess those duties did not count toward rank, but they were there to be done, none the less. The rest of the fellows expected me to take care of the money and I did.

 

So much for "Patrol Method".  With internal -to -the -Patrol PoRs, that would certainly lend a bit of organizational  umpfth to the "Patrol Method" , wouldn't it?   But then, the boys would have to insist on their buddy's responsibility and not the adults doing it?   It was my money that bought that nesting, 5 lb cook kit.   Take care of it, Ken!

[fred johnson]

If the scout is doing the work, he gets the POR credit.  There's no difference between a QM of a troop of 1 patrol or the patrol QM of a 5 patrol troop.  He's doing the same amount of work.

 

 

Stosh, Hedgehog and others ... You can manipulate wording as you want.  You can run your troop as you want.  

 

Just remember to coach your scouts for their EBOR when the district representative is present and/or the scout is in front of a complete district run EBOR.  If your scout says his patrol leader appointed him or his patrol voted him to be quarter master for the patrol ... or even if his troop assigned him as librarian for the dragon patrol ... be warned ... I know many ... if not most ... district advancement chairs that would not approve the Eagle rank as the scout did not explicitly complete the Eagle rank requirements as intended by BSA.  

 

It's just that it's explicitly against how BSA defines the positions.  BSA's own publications explicitly identify "troop" for librarian, historian, quartermaster, instructor and scribe. 

 

http://www.bsahandbook.org/PDFs/troop.pdf

 

The only patrol level POR that counts is patrol leader.  If the scouts say they were XXX for the XXX patrol, it will often become an issue in their EBOR.  If a scout said he was the Eagle patrol quartermaster that coordinated the Eagle patrol needs to the troop quartermaster or the senior quartermaster, then even if you word smith it as "troop quartermaster assigned to the Eagle patrol", it will be an issue. 

 

As a BSA leader, we are guided by BSA's words.  I just get concerned when our practices don't match BSA's words. 

Edited February 16, 2016 by fred johnson

[Stosh]

Yeah, it's kinda too bad that when a troop has only one patrol they have only one POS that counts for advancement.  Of course one can always throw out the 6-8 member requirement and have 12 boys be 3 or 4 patrols to up the eligible POR's . 

 

Fred, one also must remember that the SM project for the non-Eagle ranks allows for a boy to do every POR over a 4-6 month time period and get credit as a special project.

 

One sees this kind of POR abuse going on all the time.  Guys wearing patches and doing nothing but counting the days.  I guess I would rather have the scout actually doing something, even at a patrol level, which is better than nothing.

 

For Eagle, there is no such ambiguity allowed.  So, then he is the PL for 6 months, we're covered.

 

It would be interesting to know how WWW.BSAHANDBOOK.ORG is related, if at all, with BSA.  There's nothing on the site to indicate is is connected to BSA and the PDF gives no copyright credit to BSA with it's interpretation of what's in the Scout Handbook.

[John-in-KC]

There's an easy way to deal with the matter of the one patrol troop.

 

The PL is the leader.

 

The Troop Scribe, Troop QM, and so on work for the patrol (troop).

[John-in-KC]

Stosh,

 

Does your District/Council use Eagle Guest to unit EBOR, District EBOR, or Council EBOR?

[John-in-KC]

I will ask a couple professionals whom I know wrt bsahandbook.org.

[blw2]

Stosh, Hedgehog and others ... You can manipulate wording as you want.  You can run your troop as you want.  

 

Just remember to coach your scouts for their EBOR when the district representative is present and/or the scout is in front of a complete district run EBOR.  If your scout says his patrol leader appointed him or his patrol voted him to be quarter master for the patrol ... or even if his troop assigned him as librarian for the dragon patrol ... be warned ... I know many ... if not most ... district advancement chairs that would not approve the Eagle rank as the scout did not explicitly complete the Eagle rank requirements as intended by BSA.  

 

It's just that it's explicitly against how BSA defines the positions.  BSA's own publications explicitly identify "troop" for librarian, historian, quartermaster, instructor and scribe. 

 

http://www.bsahandbook.org/PDFs/troop.pdf

 

The only patrol level POR that counts is patrol leader.  If the scouts say they were XXX for the XXX patrol, it will often become an issue in their EBOR.  If a scout said he was the Eagle patrol quartermaster that coordinated the Eagle patrol needs to the troop quartermaster or the senior quartermaster, then even if you word smith it as "troop quartermaster assigned to the Eagle patrol", it will be an issue. 

 

As a BSA leader, we are guided by BSA's words.  I just get concerned when our practices don't match BSA's words. 

I don't know what that MSWord document is, or who wrote it.  

Might very well be a cut and paste from something specific (I'll trust you that this is the case).

& I can certainly see how one or many folks might interpret it based on this wording

But I can almost guarantee what you are saying just is not true.... regarding your interpretation being the "intent"... just based solely on common sense and logic, & IMO

It looks way too much like a semantical argument from where I'm sitting!

 

I mean really... think about it...

The SPL, PL, and TROOP Scribe all get credit by your definition.... even when they are in a troop of 3 scouts total.

While a the patrol scribe in a patrol of say 12 Scouts doesn't count? 

 

come on... get real.

 

that being said, you bring up a valuable point Fred.  Your words of caution should of course be heeded, because there are certainly folks out there that would put up a stink about it.

 

....Treasurer (collected the weekly dues, some of which went to the Troop treasurer, helped organize paying for campout grub, bought Patrol equipment)....

I'm curious about this.

As a newly minted and still not fully operational Troop Treasurer, I'm looking for ways that I could or should be using the Scouts.  I've no memory of reading or hearing about a troop treasurer Scout level POR, so I'm guessing that this position is obsolete, taken over by the scribe.

BUT

I'm wondering about the "Some of which" that went to the Troop Treasurer.  In what way was it split?

I'm guessing that this might mean that a portion was held back for use with buying groceries for patrol outings and such... is that right?

[qwazse]

If we were to do anything close to this, I see it happening on an ad hoc basis.

 

SM: "Hey PL, I have this project that will stretch over the next four camp-outs. QM is furious that your patrol mess kit is coming back the most vile and repugnant. I know it's because you all get so involved with cranking out those Crepes Suzette, that you loose track of the time needed to break camp. But can one of your boys take point on gear clean-up so that the SPL and I don't have to hear the QM spit nails?"

 

PL: "Well sir, Johnny Firstclass was just asking me about open troop positions, but we filled them all at our last PLC. Can he be like a patrol QM? I know you don't like doling out patrol PoRs, but maybe you can make it his project to whip us into shape so that we can be the pride of the troop in polished plates as well as pleased palates!"

 

SM: "Very well, send him to me for a conference and I'll line up a project plan."

[Eagledad]

I'm a little surprised by the ignorance here of POR requirements for Eagle. They have been spelled out for a long long time. There are many creative ways for small troops to use them without holding scouts back from advancement. 

 

At the same time the Scoutmaster has to figure out if the purpose of PORs is for growth of the scout's decision making skills, or growth of his stature. 

 

Barry

[Stosh]

Stosh,

 

Does your District/Council use Eagle Guest to unit EBOR, District EBOR, or Council EBOR?

 

I am unsure of how people are selected on the COUNCIL level.  That's how EBOR's are handled.  These people may be those I'm am unaware of as part of a different district, but they all seem to have some sort of BSA regalia associated with them when holding the EBOR's I have been part of.  Jac-shirt, hat or something like that identifying some kind of association with the BSA.

[Stosh]

So then this begs the question... are scouts holding POR's on the PLC or as the title states, it's the PATROL LEADERS COUNCIL chaired by the SENIOR PATROL LEADER. 

 

I would think maybe a scribe should sit in and take notes for the PLC, but only the PL's and SPL should be in attendance.  APL's don't even get credit for being a leader in the patrol, what makes anyone think BSA deems them important enough for the PLC?  After all they aren't PL's in any sense of the word or office designation.

 

I think everyone ought to drag out their by-laws and rule books and start managing the leadership processes. 

[Hedgehog]

The only patrol level POR that counts is patrol leader.  If the scouts say they were XXX for the XXX patrol, it will often become an issue in their EBOR.  If a scout said he was the Eagle patrol quartermaster that coordinated the Eagle patrol needs to the troop quartermaster or the senior quartermaster, then even if you word smith it as "troop quartermaster assigned to the Eagle patrol", it will be an issue. 

 

As a BSA leader, we are guided by BSA's words.  I just get concerned when our practices don't match BSA's words. 

 

 

Fred:

 

The guide to advancement provides that some positions can be held by more than one member:

 

4.2.3.4.1 Positions Must Be Chosen From Among Those Listed. The position must be listed in the position of responsibility requirement shown in the most current edition of Boy Scout Requirements. Since more than one member may hold some positions—“instructor,†for example—it is expected that even very large units are able to provide sufficient opportunities within the list.

 

So in a troop with 50 scouts, what is the problem with having four Troop Guides, four Troop Scribes and four Troop Instructors or even four Troop Quartermasters?