Do your scouts have patrol level POR's?

[blw2]

OK, I thought of another line of trivial survey type questions....

1) Do your scouts have patrol level POR's?

2) IF so, which positions?

3) & If so, which positions are elected, assigned from above (PL, SPL, SM), or appointed based on mutual request/understanding within the patrol?

 

I mean, do your scouts, or scouts in any troop that you know of or have known, have formal POR's in their patrols?

As in a Patrol Scribe, a Patrol Secretary, QM, etc....

 

I thought that I had read some stories about that kind of thing in the past.  But now that I'm getting a further understanding of my son's new troop, and doing a but of reading, it seems that all of these positions are meant as troop level, not patrol.

Our troop at least doesn't seem to do it this way....

But it sure seems like a logical approach to me.  Known responsibilities should result in better efficiency for the team.

The only downside I can think of is that the individual scouts won't get quite as well rounded.....

 

I plan to do a little more digging into the handbooks, but thought it might be an interesting discussion.

 

(edited to add question 3)

Edited February 14, 2016 by blw2

[qwazse]

We don't. For a while, it was because we had a one-patrol troop.

 

When we were larger, it's because we haven't seen the need for them. The boys seemed to help each other well enough to keep having fun!

 

I think Son #2's college roommate was in a troop who used them to good effect. No details, though.

[KenD500]

We have the Assistant Patrol Leader who is assigned by the Patrol Leader.  That's it.

[eagle90]

We have just Assistant Patrol Leaders, who are appointed.

 

Dale

[Eagle94-A1]

We do. Unfortunately appointed by the SM.  They mirror the troop level PORs, i.e Scribe, QM, etc and the idea behind it is that it trains them for troop level POR,.

 

Idea does work, my troop growing up had the PL assign positions, and they helped get them trained.

[Eagledad]

Yes; Cheer master, grub master, scribe, quartermaster, APL, PL.

 

We do this specifically to teach leadership, managing, and organizational skills. A new scout typically starts with cheer master or grub master because the skills for those PORs aren't overly demanding for their maturity. The main objectives are for scouts to practice organizing of their specific responsibilities for each meeting, communicating with the PL and members of the patrol, and initiating and directing suggestions and ideas for the patrol.

 

The expectations of each POR is a little more challenging so that by the time they are running for PL, they have a set of practiced skills to start with.

 

Same goes with the senior PORs; the troop scribe, quartermaster and ASPL, each have unique skills for preparation of SPL.

 

Oh, I forgot: only the PL and SPL are elected positions.

 

Barry

Edited February 14, 2016 by Eagledad

[Oldscout448]

Like Eagle94 in my youth each patrol had such positions.  Currently, I know of no troops that have them in my area.   

 

As noted before they were used to train the scouts in the needed skill sets in a small group setting before tossing them into the deep end as a troop level QM or Scribe.

 

But the main reason was to force the entire patrol to pitch in and help. THe QM took care of the patrols tents, rope, cookware, etc.  The scribe took attendance, collected dues, for buying said gear or just a fun patrol outing like pizza hut.   IIRC it was 25 cents per week, thats about a dollar nowdays.  We were expected to earn it ourselves, cut grass, shovel snow, deliver papers, whatever.   The PL had to oversee the group and of course help, cajole, and train the newbies.

 

I think the reason they fell into disuse is the decline of the patrol method.  Of what use is a patrol QM if the patrol has no gear?  or a grubmaster if all cooking is done on a troop level?  or a scribe if the parents simply cut the troop a check every year?    I freely admit it is simpler for the adults to watch over one troop than 3-6 different patrols, but it deprives the scouts of so many chances to learn.

 

Old scout

 ps. it was amazing how careful the scouts were with their equipment when they had sweated for each dollar that bought it.

Edited February 14, 2016 by Oldscout448

[blw2]

IIRC?

 

and regarding your comment "Of what use is a patrol QM if the patrol has no gear?  or a grubmaster if all cooking is done on a troop level?  or a scribe if the parents simply cut the troop a check every year? "

 

... exactly the thought running through my mind as I come up to speed as treasurer.  I'm trying to figure out what a scribe would even do re. money.... troop scribe or patrol.

We discussed this in another thread recently.  I understand the point that a scribe should get involved with what I'm doing.... but truthfully there just isn't all taht much he could do.... except perhaps when a parent tries to hand me a check in the back of the room during a troop meeting, I could direct them to have their son give it to his scribe....  Probably a worthwhile approach... but really it's not all that much.  

I've mentioned this rough idea  a time or two, and our CC really raised eyebrows at the idea.... about a kid handling these big checks.... and parents not liking that.  She's prob right, but that is precisely why it would prob be worthwhile to do..  Helps train parents in a subtle way, and help the scout subconsciously see that it really is their troop.

[Oldscout448]

If I Recall Correctly 

 

 

In my troop the treasurer and the troop scribe met once a month. The treasurer showed the scribe how the accounts were set up ( a useful skill ) and the amounts in them so that the scribe could update his books and report to the plc.  The big money like summer camp bypassed the scribe,but he was always the go-between guy for all the little amounts. The scribe was always one of the older scouts 15-17,  and often the treasurers son.

 

The QM had an adult "helper" as well.

 

I try to let the scouts do everything they can, most of the time I am still surprised at how much that is

Edited February 14, 2016 by Oldscout448

[Eagledad]

The troop quartermaster in our troop has the only working keys to the storage room and trailer. The CC has a backup set only to be used if the QM looses his set. Nobody goes into the troop storage or trailer without going through the quartermaster. He also helps the driver hook up the trailer to the car and verifies everything is in working order. It's a lot of responsibility and they take it very seriously.

 

If one of the adventure crews needs the trailer and the QM, is not part of the crew, he selects a member of the crew to be responsible for the trailer. Usually that scout considers being selected an honor.

 

The troop QM also trains the patrol QMs. They are responsible for the storage, cleanliness and transportation of the patrol gear. From my perspective as a SM, the major skills I wanted the QMs to practice is training and organization. The troop and patrol QMs are in charge and direct the loading and unloading of gear. Even the SPL and PLs take a backseat to their authority with the handling of gear.

 

Barry

[Stosh]

The goal is to have a functional job for everyone.  Like the SPL, the troop level POR is used only if necessary due to multiple patrols.  When we had 4 patrols we had a full complement of LC POR's.  If there are two patrols and 2 QM's they can work out the logistics on their own without a hassle.  3 patrols?  could get a bit dicey at times when 2 older QM's took advantage of the younger QM and that's when it was suggested that the troop have IPA's. Individual Patrol Accounts.  If your patrol raised the money and bought the equipment, no other patrol was allowed to used it without the owner patrol's permission.  All the equipment eventually had patrol ID's on it and a section of the troop trailer to store it.  That pretty much meant that each patrol needed it's own QM.    Not much need then for the troop QM.

 

Like the SPL, that role was filled on an ad hoc basis and it applied to all the troop level POR's as well.  We also had a lot of the POR's multiply held by the Individual as well.  QM also stepped in many times as an Instructor.  There was some equipment that was "troop" owned such as the splits and bandages used for teaching first aid, etc.  In the interest of not wanting to lend it out only to have it lost, the QM would teach the S2FC instruction on first aid so he could keep tabs on the equipment. 

 

In the smaller units of only one or two patrols, multiple PORs were assumed ad hoc all the time.

[fred johnson]

1) Do your scouts have patrol level POR's?   YES.

2) IF so, which positions?   PL and APL.

3) & If so, which positions are elected, assigned from above (PL, SPL, SM), or appointed based on mutual request/understanding within the patrol?

All are decided by the patrol.  PL is always elected by patrol.  APL is sometimes elected and sometimes selected by PL.  Decided by the patrol itself.

 

Advancement ... Be careful. ... Though it will rarely blow up as an issue as lower rank BORs are not audited; ... except patrol leader, ... patrol level PORs do not count for rank advancement.  I'd hate to see a scout sit before an EBOR and some POR question reveals it was a patrol POR instead of a troop POR.  It would be a stopping point.

Edited February 15, 2016 by fred johnson

[qwazse]

Advancement ... Be careful. ... Though it will rarely blow up as an issue as lower rank BORs are not audited; ... except patrol leader, ... patrol level PORs do not count for rank advancement.  I'd hate to see a scout sit before an EBOR and some POR question reveals it was a patrol POR instead of a troop POR.  It would be a stopping point.

That's a really important discussion to have at the 1st class SMC and BoR.

[Hedgehog]

Advancement ... Be careful. ... Though it will rarely blow up as an issue as lower rank BORs are not audited; ... except patrol leader, ... patrol level PORs do not count for rank advancement.  I'd hate to see a scout sit before an EBOR and some POR question reveals it was a patrol POR instead of a troop POR.  It would be a stopping point.

 

 

Fred:

 

What are you basing your statement that patrol level PORs don't count?  As I read the list, a scribe, librarian, historian, quartermaster, bugler, instructor and Leave No Trace trainer don't have a "Troop" requirement as, for example, troop guide or troop webmaster:

 

Boy Scout troop. Patrol leader, assistant senior patrol leader, senior patrol leader, Venture patrol leader, troop guide, Order of the Arrow troop representative, den chief, scribe, librarian, historian, quartermaster, bugler, junior assistant Scoutmaster, chaplain aide, instructor, troop Webmaster, or Leave No Trace trainer

 

 

Additionally, is there any prohibition against having a troop guide assigned to each patrol?  The scout would serve as a guide to their patrol.

 

The only patrol level position we have that we treat as NOT qualifying for advancement is the Assistant Patrol Leader who also serves as a Troop Guide.

 

Thoughsts?

[Stosh]

Fred:

 

What are you basing your statement that patrol level PORs don't count?  As I read the list, a scribe, librarian, historian, quartermaster, bugler, instructor and Leave No Trace trainer don't have a "Troop" requirement as, for example, troop guide or troop webmaster:

 

 

Additionally, is there any prohibition against having a troop guide assigned to each patrol?  The scout would serve as a guide to their patrol.

 

The only patrol level position we have that we treat as NOT qualifying for advancement is the Assistant Patrol Leader who also serves as a Troop Guide.

 

Thoughsts?

 

If the scout is doing the work, he gets the POR credit.  There's no difference between a QM of a troop of 1 patrol or the patrol QM of a 5 patrol troop.  He's doing the same amount of work.

 

In my small units, my boys often double up on POR's anyway and a boy that is APL might also be the Chaplain's Aide and Historian as well.  Do they wear the patch?  Nope, but they document the work they do and get credit for multiple POR's for their advancement requirement.  There's nothing in the requirement that states that the 4/6 month time has to be filled with just one POR.

 

If Fred's argument is carried through to the end, a single patrol troop would never have anyone receiving POR credit for anything other than PL .....  Or they can have a SPL that does nothing but wear a patch and get advancement credit pencil whipped.

 

And as far as doubling up on the POR's how many Instructors can a troop have?  Den Chiefs? Chaplain's Aides? TG's? ASPL's? So why would Scribe or QM be any different?

Edited February 15, 2016 by Stosh