"A Pretty Dark Picture"

[Stosh]

Actually me yelling at them DID throw all of them off. It also threw off the rest of the troop, and the adults. One of my friends stated, " I've never seen you get that angry in the 7 years I've known you. And you dealt with Cubs."

 

 

Nope, that's what they got you to do, get you outside your comfort zone.  They win.

 

And don't think for a moment that there aren't teachers, coaches, and/or parents that haven't got you beat on that type of reaction.  Those people are pro's,  You're just an amateur. 

 

I know of my current troop "pushed me too far" once.  They were being real wild for some odd reason on an outing.  I put up "sign's up" and there was dead silence.  I quietly waited a while, then proceeded quietly as if nothing had happened.  Before the weekend ended, everyone of the boys that were screwing up came and quietly apologized to me in private.  That's how one plays the game.  One of the rules of my game is, as a courtesy to you, I will never use "sign's up" to interrupt you.  I find screaming and yelling hard on the vocal cords....

[fred johnson]

Actually me yelling at them DID throw all of them off. It also threw off the rest of the troop, and the adults. One of my friends stated, " I've never seen you get that angry in the 7 years I've known you. And you dealt with Cubs."

 

I'm confused.  I did not see the data from the other thread.  You are not the scoutmaster.  You and your son are new to the troop.  And you are yelling at the scouts, trying to organize patrol meetings and/or patrol camp outs?  

 

On what basis is that being done?  IMHO, parents need to work through the scoutmaster and/or committee chair.  It's worse than adult led if the adults are not on the same page.  

[qwazse]

I'm confused.  I did not see the data from the other thread.  You are not the scoutmaster.  You and your son are new to the troop.  And you are yelling at the scouts, trying to organize patrol meetings and/or patrol camp outs?  

 

On what basis is that being done?  IMHO, parents need to work through the scoutmaster and/or committee chair.  It's worse than adult led if the adults are not on the same page.  

To get Fred up to speed ...

• Time flies. They have been in this troop for over a year -- newbies no more.
• E94-a1 is now dubbed the "ASM to the NSP",
• The NSP is hardy new anymore, paucity of 1st class scouts notwithstanding.
• His Son #1 had served a full term as SPL last year, thus earning him veteran status.
• So, by internal standards, he has full authority to reign these hoodlums in.
• By those same standards, he does not have a say in when/how to reconfigure the membership.
• The notion of re-configuring as you go along not being part of this troops culture, SM is holding of until elections a couple of months down the road for such things.
• On the 8-month horizon, an large influx of crossovers.

For those of us on the outside, "reigning in" this cadre is an exercise of elevating blood pressure.

 

E94-A1, did I miss anything else that's keeping the pieces on this board in check?

Edited February 10, 2016 by qwazse

[fred johnson]

Okay.  Makes sense.  I've seen too many adults that clumsily jump in to get their way without getting making sure the scoutmaster and the other key adult leaders are on the same page and agreeing to go that direction.   

 

Without that scoutmaster buy-in, it can get ugly and you need to be careful to work without your bounds of influence.  Otherwise, you can easily do more damage than good.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

[Eagle94-A1]

Qwasze,

 

Nope, you are spot on. 2 years in the troop, 1yr 6 months as a committeee member; 7 months as an ASM, although 2 months of that was limited due to injury. Oh Son was a PL prior to being SPL.

 

Fred,

 

Understand completely. We have a parents who are former CS leaders we are trying to reign in. One idea an ASM is doing is card games for the adults. We actually had 1 new crossover leader join in the game and not shadowing his son. And elevated blood pressure is an understatement.

 

As for organizing a patrol meeting, that was the troop guide trying to do that. He wanted a meeting before the January Lock In to go over supplies, decide if they want to change the name of the patrol and make a new flag or keep it, and have some goof off time. As for camp outs, my job from the SM and ASMs is to be the NSP ASM and work with them as needed. Unfortunately they are acting more like a Webelos Den than a Boy Scout patrol.And with the exception of 2 of them, they should know better.

 

 

@Eagle94-A1

 

I like some of what Eagledad suggests.  It does seem like a need to approach it from a different direction to gel the team together.

 

At some point you mentioned taht there was one scout that was a bad egg, in terms of trying to break down the patrol from within no matter what... something to that effect.

THAT is where I think I might look first.  My first thought was to have a sit down with the scout and his parent(s) but perhaps a better approach might be to gain the scout's trust somehow.  Maybe he's dealing with stuff at home, or elsewhere

 

One thought might be to coach the PL (or SPL since the PL prob isn't trusted) to buddy up to the guy a bit... then the SPL could pull him aside out of earshot from others and in a very caring way say something like, "hey, i noticed you have been doing xyz.  Is there anything I can do to help?"... basically caoch the SPL to open a dialog.  Then do that yourself, another time... try to pick a moment when he's having fun, maybe a time when he's laughing with you about a joke you said, or some other funny story you both enjoyed....  If it's expressed as a genuine concern, perhaps either the SPL, or you, or both might learn something that's triggering the bad behaviour....You might learn something that's a root cause.  try different approaches at different times.  Give it some time, for him to develop trust.

 

Then, if none of that kind of stuff works, I might think about having a parent scout conference telling him and his parents how he is being disruptive, why it hurts the others, etc.... and that it can't continue.... asking him to sit out a meeting, or a campout.... and that he can come back when he wants to try... Make it clear that you want him back.

 

 

We actually had the conference with the mom due to a situation that did arise. That's when we found out some of the things going on. Biggest challenge is that he is only attending meetings about 50% of the time. In thinking about camp outs, my memory is fuzzy, But since May  I don't think he's been camping with the troop. Part of the behavior and attendance problem is the custody situation. 

 

More in a bit

[Eagle94-A1]

Back.

 

Talked to oldest about using a planned trip to isolate the patrol from the rest of the troop, and keep the adults away. He thought it is a good idea, and may work. Then when I mentioned he would go back to his old patrol his comment was "OOOOHHHHHH. Can I bring a video camera and tape it?"

 

Thank you all for the advice and recommendations. Please keep them coming. Sometimes you get so wrapped up in a situation, you don't see the alternatives.

[Eagle94-A1]

Fred,

 

The large influx of new Scouts in December refers to the potential to have 14 - 24 new Scouts coming from 2 packs. One pack has 14, and we may lose a few to a neighboring troop since their CO no longer has a pack (troop's leadership is OK with this). The other Pack has 10 Webelos, but has very limited relations with their CO's troop, despite repeated attempts and begging to get the troop involved in ANY way with the Webelos. Troop didn't even do Scouting for Food or Scout Sunday at the CO with the pack.

[Stosh]

One has to remember that any time someone has a connection to the orientation of new scouts into a troop, it can be a job needing a bit of finesse.  Take boys that have had a heavily adult-led Cub program and transition them into a boy-led.  Of course these boys are 7 years less mature than say, 18 year-old "adults" going off to college and we all know how that turns out.  From that perspective, I'm thinking that as long as everyone keeps sharp objects out of Eagle94-A1's hands everything should be okay.  There's nothing he's going to do to these boys that 20 to 25 years of professional therapy can't fix.

 

As a person who does find that new patrols needing orientation can be a bit of a transitional challenge, if done right can work out just fine and the boy can make the necessary adjustments rather quickly.  If it's something that one is unfamiliar with it can be a bit of a bumpy road.  

 

For his first rodeo, Eagle94-A1 is doing just fine.  Like everyone else, he's going to pay his dues and learn the ropes.

[Eagle94-A1]

Actually not my first time with NSPs. My troop was one of the troops that experimented with it in the mid to late 1980s, before it became official in 1989.  I was placed as PL, what today would be called the TG back in 1986 - 1987. The NSP concept was so bad with my troop, that we abandoned the idea, even when it became BSA policy.

 

Idea came about again with my troop when we had another, brand new trip decide to piggy back with us.  Within 6 months, the two troops merged, and we did away with the NSP by reorganizing patrols. Basically the plan I proposed with to the other adults.

 

I know for a fact my negative views towards NSPs stem from these two instances. In the first case, when I was PL, it was my SPL, ASPL, and a few of the LC members who helped me out before issues got as bad as the ones I'm encountering.  In the second instance, I was the ASPL, so I took the TG and PL under my wing and spent a lot of time with that patrol. At the moment our "older Scout patrol" is not in a position to do what my mentors did.

 

The other concern is me turning it into a Cub Scout den. If I was still a Scout, I'd have no problem doing some of the things I've needed to be done since I see it really as youth responsibilities. When I ask myself "Is this something I would see Mr____, Mr.________, or Mr. _________ doing?" And usually the answer is NO. But who is there to do the job? And if I don't do it in the best Scout-like way, making them think and coming up with answers, won't the other adults just tell them exactly what to do?  Yes.

 

Like I've mentioned previously, balancing act.

 

Please keep them coming. Good ideas, causing a lot of introspection.

 

On a lighter note:

 

As for the sharp objects, Tomahawk Tossing is one of the events at camporee again this year, and I own 1/2 of the tomahawks the troop will be practicing with.

[Eagledad]

I'm not a fan of NSPs or same age patrols, there are just to many negatives to overcome with a boy run program. But a good leader can make any patrol style work when the goals are understood. In the big picture, 300 feet is a lot more important than election cycles.

 

A past member Kudu like these kinds of challenges because he believe the rebellious boys had the most moxie to make an independent patrol function best. That was his style and he was/is good at it. But he like the Badon Powell scouts because the SM chooses the Patrol Leader who tends to stay with the patrol several years. Not my style, but as I look at Eagle94's Patrol, I think this might be an approach I would consider to get these scouts running forward. I'm not proud, I look for what it takes.

 

I don't know, my style of leading is watching the growth of scouts. If they are getting bored, not learning skills and not really trying to enjoy the program, then I change things. I think I would push this patrol to be different from the other patrols. I would work with the SPL to try a few things to find what makes it work. I might start pushing them to be a back packing patrol and do everything as if they are going in the back county. I might even give them the notoriety of always hiking a mile in and out of camp. I would sell it as being the extra cool patrol. Yes, it seems hard at first, but it will eventually be something all the patrols want to try. Make this patrol different, make it special. A slightly different uniform that fits their more adventurous image. Different back packing tents, different patrol gear. They would become the experts of packing in light.  It doesn't sound like anyone will mind since this patrol is already been given up as the misfit patrol. Done right, this might be the model patrol the troop uses five years from now. 

 

Can you imagine these guys becoming the elite scouts of the troop? Maybe, I'm a dreamer. 

 

Yes, I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

Edited February 11, 2016 by Eagledad

[Stosh]

Currently  have two scouts in my troop, one has been with us 2 years, the other one 1 year. 

 

So if I have any reservations about NSP's I had better can them quickly in that I have the potential of 2-3 new NSP's coming up this spring in the cross-over.  One of my boys is pretty hooked on scouting (the younger one) the older one is quiet and reserved, doesn't talk unless directly addressed and then is pleasant.  He does harbor a sense of humor.  That's what I have to work with this coming year.

 

I am doing the AOL training for boys from 3 different packs and hopefully my efforts will produce a good number of boys from the cross-over.  My boys and I had a long talk about how this was going to shake out and it was decided by them, that they would need to step up their game, but in the short run, I as SM may have to run the troop in the beginning.  The boys and I will reevaluate the compact every month.  This will give us time to identify the natural leaders in the cross-overs and figure that by this time next year (6 months after cross-over) it will need to be back at 100% boy led.  That doesn't mean it couldn't happen earlier, we are just figuring a worse case scenario.  Every month more and more boy led will need to be identified and less and less involvement by adults clarified.

 

So, where's the biggest concern here?  ME!    I've never done adult-led as a SM.  It'll be quite a challenge for me.  Fortunately I have 2 boys that can help me.  I do have WDL experience from 20 years ago that I can get through the AOL training which is basically adult-led, but I'm hoping by the time these Webelos II boys are ready to cross-over, they will be well on their way to boy-led anyway.  Next meeting the Webelos boys will be forming their patrols and selecting their leadership, 2 TG's standing by...   It's far from ideal, but one needs to work with what they have.

[blw2]

To get Fred up to speed ...

• Time flies. They have been in this troop for over a year -- newbies no more.
• E94-a1 is now dubbed the "ASM to the NSP",
• The NSP is hardy new anymore, paucity of 1st class scouts notwithstanding.
• His Son #1 had served a full term as SPL last year, thus earning him veteran status.
• So, by internal standards, he has full authority to reign these hoodlums in.
• By those same standards, he does not have a say in when/how to reconfigure the membership.
• The notion of re-configuring as you go along not being part of this troops culture, SM is holding of until elections a couple of months down the road for such things.
• On the 8-month horizon, an large influx of crossovers.

For those of us on the outside, "reigning in" this cadre is an exercise of elevating blood pressure.

 

E94-A1, did I miss anything else that's keeping the pieces on this board in check?

paucity ?  Everyday this forum is like a word wealth class!

 

Okay.  Makes sense.  I've seen too many adults that clumsily jump in to get their way without getting making sure the scoutmaster and the other key adult leaders are on the same page and agreeing to go that direction.   

 

Without that scoutmaster buy-in, it can get ugly and you need to be careful to work without your bounds of influence.  Otherwise, you can easily do more damage than good.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

Your post, and really the whole idea of having an ASM assigned to a patrol reminds me of a podcast over at scoutmastercg a while back.

I don't remember which podcast, or even what the topic or question was exactly....but generally, Clark was talking about the role of an ASM, how many ASM's a troop really should have in his opinion, etc...

If I'm remembering correctly, & I think I do because I'm still a bit taken aback by the idea...

his points were that there really didn't need to be more than 1 or 2 ASMs in a troop, regardless of size.  More or less a general idea is that one of them would be considered sort of like a 1st ASM, who is in training to take the SM job at some set date in the future.

And the bigger point was that ASMs should never really be talking with a scout at all, unless specifically directed by the SM... as in the SM putting the words into the ASM's mouth to pass on... That ALL adult interaction in a troop should go through the SM only....

.....with the point being to eliminate mixed messages, misunderstandings, directives or ideas not in keeping with the SM's vision, and so on

 

and related to this, I think it was in another podcast where he discussed the idea that troops today generally have far too many adult members.  that we shouldn't be having excess adults camping beyond the SM and ASM, and if a parent or committee member does attend that it be strictly regulated as a distant observer, with no direct contact with any scout.  that the SM's & ASM's biggest charge is to be in charge of the adults, to keep them at a distance.  Basically to remember that this is the scouts' troop.  It is their game to play.  It is their journey.  It's not our journey, we shouldn't be having the parent patrol playing the game of scouting in the troop.

 

I might have those points a little off, If I do, my apologies Clark.... but that was more or less the gist of what I took from several podcast discussions.

 

My take, limiting the adults really does make some sense to me....

& i get the idea that the SM's vision should be clearly understood by any adult interacting with scouts.... but to completely and absolutely muzzle other active troop adults seems a bit extreme to me.  Not sure I agree with it.

 

 

.........

I don't know, my style of leading is watching the growth of scouts. If they are getting bored, not learning skills and not really trying to enjoy the program, then I change things. I think I would push this patrol to be different from the other patrols. I would work with the SPL to try a few things to find what makes it work. I might start pushing them to be a back packing patrol and do everything as if they are going in the back county. I might even give them the notoriety of always hiking a mile in and out of camp. I would sell it as being the extra cool patrol. Yes, it seems hard at first, but it will eventually be something all the patrols want to try. Make this patrol different, make it special. A slightly different uniform that fits their more adventurous image. Different back packing tents, different patrol gear. They would become the experts of packing in light.  It doesn't sound like anyone will mind since this patrol is already been given up as the misfit patrol. Done right, this might be the model patrol the troop uses five years from now. 

 

Can you imagine these guys becoming the elite scouts of the troop? Maybe, I'm a dreamer. 

 

Yes, I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

 

Very intriguing idea!

 

 

 

[Eagle94-A1]

^BLW2,

 

^{My troop growing up was one of those with minimal adults active, basically enough to get  the Scouts and gear to and from the camp. When I was PL/TG of the NSP during testing, I didn't run to the adults for help, I ran to my SPL, ASPL and a few other older, LC members. You wouldn't go to the adult campsite because that was a bad sign, unless SPL.  The Adults campsite  was comparable to going to the principle in school. Ditto if they came into your campsite, other than to sample the food}

[Hedgehog]

His points were that there really didn't need to be more than 1 or 2 ASMs in a troop, regardless of size.  More or less a general idea is that one of them would be considered sort of like a 1st ASM, who is in training to take the SM job at some set date in the future.

 

And the bigger point was that ASMs should never really be talking with a scout at all, unless specifically directed by the SM... as in the SM putting the words into the ASM's mouth to pass on... That ALL adult interaction in a troop should go through the SM only....

 

.....with the point being to eliminate mixed messages, misunderstandings, directives or ideas not in keeping with the SM's vision, and so on

 

and related to this, I think it was in another podcast where he discussed the idea that troops today generally have far too many adult members.  that we shouldn't be having excess adults camping beyond the SM and ASM, and if a parent or committee member does attend that it be strictly regulated as a distant observer, with no direct contact with any scout.  that the SM's & ASM's biggest charge is to be in charge of the adults, to keep them at a distance.  Basically to remember that this is the scouts' troop.  It is their game to play.  It is their journey.  It's not our journey, we shouldn't be having the parent patrol playing the game of scouting in the troop.

 

 

Interesting.  Our troop has an SM, a 1st ASM (me) and a cadre of other ASMs.  A handful of the other ASMs (usually the same two or three) come on outings - we have at least 1 adult for every 10 boys.

 

Typically, the SM and I are the ones who talk to the boys and then typically only to the SPL, ASPL, PLs a APLs at the Friday night PLC meeting.

 

We do our best to keep the other adults out of the way of the boys.  Most of the ASMs that have been around get it.  The new ones take a little bit of time to get used to it.  We make a point about talking up boy-led around the adult campfire.  The adults operate like a patrol and have our own area to camp, have our own set of gear, cook our own food and have our own campfire.  I suspect most of us are there because we enjoy each other's company and enjoy camping.

[Eagle94-A1]

Well I talked to son some more about the camp out idea. For the most part, he likes the idea of getting the NSP away from everyone and being completely on their own. He does feels obligated to stay with them instead of going back to his old patrol that weekend since they are his responsibility. Can't fault him for that one bit.

 

I briefly talked to one leader about it, one who has a son in the patrol. "About time" was his comment. Going to talk to the SPL, or if oldest wants to do the talking, then let him talk to the SPL about the idea.

 

On a side note, gotta make sure the helicopter parents stay out of the way. I had an interesting conversation today at my youngest son's birthday party with a mom from another troop. Long story short, she was upset that the leaders "weren't doing anything but talking while the boys did all the work." When they told her it was the boys job to do the counting for Scouting for Food, she replied, I want to get out of her before tonite," and kept on counting.