"A Pretty Dark Picture"

[Eagle94-A1]

So I'm splitting from the "Signs that your unit might be adult led" thread. Not going to try and repost stuff from over there.

 

I do think having multiple groups coming in at different times is part of the problem.  Especially since the three different packs had three different leader/parent models, especially on the Webelos level. One pack had a DL who started BS leader training early, has a lot of outdoor experience, and started the "transition" as Webelos 1s.

 

Second pack had a similar leader and similar expereinces. 

 

The Third pack however, was heavily leader run, even at the Webelos level. Parents were heavily involved, and from my experience with them, did everything for the Cubs. That group has a majority.

 

Stosh mentioned someone playing games.  I do think one of our scouts IS playing games. I think he's forced to be in Scouts by mom, and is constantly negative, causes some of the arguments, and has gotten physical twice on two occasions. When we talked to mom about this, the excuse was medications cause this. Thankfully they are moving soon.

 

As to why they are sticking around?

 

I know one want more challenging expereinces, and spend time with his best friend. However he is thinking about switching to another troop. Right now the weekend backpacking trip, summer camp, and AT trail are his motivation for staying.

 

One Scout want to be just like dad and be an Eagle. IMHO, he has a BIG challenge with his grandmother, whom he lives with. She spoils him rotten, and does everything for him.

 

One Scout enjoys Scouting and wants to be an Eagle.

 

One wants a troop that is more active, i.e. camps every month. Sad thing is he's had to miss camping due to Dad and weekends.

 

Two enjoy Scouting, or so they say. But when the going gets rough, they go to dad, if he's there, or the leaders. The other has a cell phone on autodial to momma. And she WILL pick him up as soon as possible as evidenced at  summer camp.

 

The rest I don't know yet.

 

In regards to changing the patrols NOW, there are a few challenges.

 

First, I'm not the SM, nor a member of the CO, so I do have to have their support. Unlike most COs, they ARE involved. They may not be as active as they should be, they are active and do support the troop. Changes, especially major ones like the one we are planning to do, they want to know about. Heck the CC was upset he didn't sign off on a leader's application b/c the IH, who is also an ASM, signed it instead, and forgot to tell him.

 

Second, We talked to the Older Scouts about this and gave them to April to come up with any ideas to improve the situation. We want their input, want them to come up with ideas, maybe somethings the adults haven't come up with yet, and give them some ownership of the problem.  Coming back to them and saying 'We gotta do this NOW" will destroy whatever trust in us, and ownership of the problem.

 

Third, we got to give the PLs and troop level leaders some time in their positions. MORE LATER

 

 

Fourth, we got to talk to the SM about not appointing APLs and troop level positions. I think that's another issue causing problems. APL was appointed by the SM, and it wasn't even the guy who was one vote away from being the PL. Then again, the PL may have selected his best friend instead of someone capable of the job. At least the SM did pick some capable of the job. But that hasn't been the case before as my son noted.

 

 

[Stosh]

With all the adult fingers in the pot stirring things around, I don't see much options out there for the boys.

 

Sure the April deadline for the boys input is nothing but a vague line in the sand begging to be crossed.  But my prediction will be the boys will drag their feet, do a few umms, and huhs, and such but will simply wait out the time period for the adults to do something.

 

Dancing around the issue and heading it straight on are the only two options going on here, and I don't see anyone really lining up to take it straight on.  @@Eagle94-A1, you by yourself don't make a line, need at least one other to start a line.  I don't see many warm bodies in your corner.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Stosh

[Eagledad]

Just for clarification, there are few of enough of these scout to merge into other patrols, why is that not considered? 

 

Barry

[Stosh]

Maybe with that much drama coming out of that patrol, no one wants them. 

[Krampus]

@@Eagle94-A1, we had a similar issue when we tried to take the adults out of the picture and go to a more boy led approach. what worked for us was:

• Get buy in from the CO and TC. We had a meeting around the mission, goals and objectives of the scouting program. We discuss the keys to growth and leadership development being allowing the the boys to run "their" program.
• We laid out any objections to this approach and discussed the pros and cons of the objections. We found most of them to be adults not wanting to give up control.
• We developed a plan over a 1-2 year period how we could train scouts and adults alike to manage their various areas within the unit.
• The TC -- including all parents registered with the troop -- were very supportive of the change. Once the agendas were out in the open the adults had no where to hide. Taking away a learning, growth or leadership opportunity for a youth was akin to denying him something everyone agreed was the point of the program.

As you can imagine, we have a few noses out of joint. Some left. Most stayed. Within two years those who opposed the change were either gone, Eagled out, aged out or still with us. Only a few in the first category. By the end of year three we had infused so many new families that it seemed like we had ALWAYS operated as a boy led group.

 

Now, 10+ years later, there are very few who remember this "conflict" at all. I agree with @@Stosh, if you don't have many folks in your corner to support the change, change won't happen. It will take buy in from the TC and the CO, *or* it will need to be such an overwhelming show of support from the member parents as to force change. Without either of those groups I don't see you changing anything.

[Eagle94-A1]

The way the patrols are set up, we have an "older " Scout patrol with seven 13-15 year olds  in it; and two "NSPs," according to BSA's definition i.e. not yet First Class.  One "NSP" has been around 2 years now, and is comprised of 12-13 year olds. It has  That is the patrol my son the TG came from, and they have their act together. I going to call them the 'experienced" scouts to make it easier

 

The other "NSP"

is the one we are having issues with.

 

Concern is that the keeping the two good patrols intact and dividing in half the troubled NSP would A) make overly large patrols and B) the 12- 13 year old patrol would have the same issues, although on a minor scale.

 

Plus as  Stosh commented, nobody really wants them now.

 

The thinking is by dividing the older scouts ( who in the troops the leaders grew up in would be still in the patrols serving al PLs at their age or just moved up into the LC), and the experienced Scouts up and  dividing the NSP amongst them, it would make the transition less painful.

 

As for support, depending upon what it is I got it.  But some things, like the folks appointing their own leaders, having the SPL, ASPL, PLs and a few others sign off on advancement I got a lot to do.

[qwazse]

I keep going back to thinking "you can only do what you may do."

 

This is not an NSP. It is a T2FP (trail to first class patrol). The handbook is written under the (flawed) assumption that 1st class is obtainable in a year for most boys. Well, if most boys buy-in to advancement being an important thing, maybe. But, our troop flipped, we got a rowdy patrol where fellowship was the most important thing with adventure coming in a close second. We leaned hard on them to be responsible for their own goals. (They made pancakes and cleaned gear a lot!)

 

Is it likely that you and one of the boy's parents would chaperon a patrol overnight? Forget this trying to stay organized in a meeting and fiddling with rosters and menus. Find someplace close, a weekend you can spare, and offer it. No rosters, everybody pitch $20 in for food and gas. Provision at some general store near camp. Have them give the SM a decent plan (tour plan stuff: departure, return, drivers, etc ...) and implement it. For uniforming, try only requiring their neckerchiefs (friendship knotted so they don't lose their slide).

 

I'm just saying, if change is not forthcoming from the top, work with what you have. And by "work" I mean stop trying to get them to be anything other than who they are during meetings, start trying to get them to perform in situations where they won't be a drag on the troop.

 

This is no longer your current SPL's or TG's problem, this is the PL/APL's problem. So, since your'e stuck as their adviser, find an environment where the scouts aren't gonna frustrate you as much. For me that would be a sizable field where I can find a corner to swap stories with my co-chaperon, make some coffee, fish, and watch the sky.

Edited February 10, 2016 by qwazse

[Hedgehog]

Sounds like age based patrols rather than a NSP.  My understanding is that the NSP is for short term use.  The best use I saw for it was for crossover scouts from when they join until summer camp.

 

I would reform all the patrols letting the boys choose.  Now, considering that as an ASM in my troop, I'm unable to get that accomplished, you also will be met with unsurmountable obstacles.

 

So the best realistic solution is to give them the freedom to fail.  They are really in a power struggle with the adults -- from you, to the SPL, to the TG to their parents and grandparents.  From what you are saying, it seems like they keep winning in that struggle.  The only way to solve that is to give them complete control over their destiny.

 

My sense is that it goes like this.  The TG tells the PL that he will be with his patrol and will be available if the PL needs him to do something.  The SPL goes about other duties.  The patrol come in to their meeting space.  You pull up a chair and start reading this: http://www.amazon.com/Scouting-Boys-Original-Edition-Recreations/dp/0486457192.  They ask what they should do, you respond, "it is up to you, you guys are in charge."  Any other questions, the responses should be similar --  "Boy-led means you make your own decisions" "See what it says on the shirt?  'Boy Scouts' do i look like a boy to you?"  "It's your patrol, you guys have to decide."  

 

It can't be any worse that what you describe.  However, there is a good possibility that when they realize that an adult isn't going to try to tell them what to do (which allows them to misbehave by not doing that) or that an adult isn't going to come to their rescue (which gives them no incentive to do the right thing), they may just decide to get their act toghether.

[Eagledad]

I'm thinking along the same lines as qwaze. The meetings aren't going to fix anything, not in the current format. I was also thinking about a overnight campout intended to let them struggle on their own. But one thought the meeting is to grab the guys after opening and take them to a place where you can divide them into two teams, then have a tent set up race. After they finish, sit down and ask them how well they think they did. Ask them if they can do better. Then tell you will give each team a minute to come up with a plan and then race again. This time see how they do. Hopefully they are getting into it. Hopefully you are seeing some kind of team work. Ask them how they did again, Can they do better. Then tell they have one minute as a group to come up with a plan to set the tent up together and time them. After they are through, ask them if that is the best they can do because you are going to ask the older scout patrol to a challenge. See what that does. Did they come together in some way? Does a leader stick out? 

 

You  need to build this patrol into a team. Seperate them out from the troop program until you get some cohesion. I like quaze' idea of a patrol camp out. 

 

The scouts need to change their behavior and that won't happen until the are uncomfortable with their present behavior. They need to be stressed to change. Not stress with authority coming down on them, but stressed because they are making wrong choices. Also nothing like physical stress to build a team. Competition is a great team builder and boys love competition. 

 

Those are some quick thoughts anyway.

 

Barry

[blw2]

@Eagle94-A1

 

I like some of what Eagledad suggests.  It does seem like a need to approach it from a different direction to gel the team together.

 

At some point you mentioned taht there was one scout that was a bad egg, in terms of trying to break down the patrol from within no matter what... something to that effect.

THAT is where I think I might look first.  My first thought was to have a sit down with the scout and his parent(s)

but perhaps a better approach might be to gain the scout's trust somehow.  Maybe he's dealing with stuff at home, or elsewhere

One thought might be to coach the PL (or SPL since the PL prob isn't trusted) to buddy up to the guy a bit... then the SPL could pull him aside out of earshot from others and in a very caring way say something like, "hey, i noticed you have been doing xyz.  Is there anything I can do to help?"... basically caoch the SPL to open a dialog.  Then do that yourself, another time... try to pick a moment when he's having fun, maybe a time when he's laughing with you about a joke you said, or some other funny story you both enjoyed....  If it's expressed as a genuine concern, perhaps either the SPL, or you, or both might learn something that's triggering the bad behaviour....You might learn something that's a root cause.  try different approaches at different times.  Give it some time, for him to develop trust.

 

Then, if none of that kind of stuff works, I might think about having a parent scout conference telling him and his parents how he is being disruptive, why it hurts the others, etc.... and that it can't continue.... asking him to sit out a meeting, or a campout.... and that he can come back when he wants to try... Make it clear that you want him back.

[blw2]

another suggestion:  go back and read BP's Aids to Scoutmastership

http://scoutmastercg.com/aids-scoutmastership/

at least the first half or so..... some good stuff in there about finding and bringing out the good in the boy.

also about what draws the boy in and helps them to have some fun with this scouting stuff.

[blw2]

I posted in another thread, my thought that maybe some of these NSP failures have something to do with the name.  really more to do with the underlying concept.

 

When you give a name to something, the subconscious mind has a way of making it fit reality. (or is it reality fitting the name?)

 

Instead, I like the idea of calling it

"A patrol

(one that just happens to have mostly inexperienced scouts and leaders)"

right away, it gives it more of a sense of permanence

and it seems a little more like a group that just needs a little help or a nudge once in awhile, as opposed to a group taht needs to be babied.

[Stosh]

  Quit reacting the way they expect you to.  If you do something different than scream and yell, they won't know how to play the game.  Totally throws them off.

[Stosh]

I posted in another thread, my thought that maybe some of these NSP failures have something to do with the name.  really more to do with the underlying concept.

 

When you give a name to something, the subconscious mind has a way of making it fit reality. (or is it reality fitting the name?)

 

Instead, I like the idea of calling it

"A patrol

(one that just happens to have mostly inexperienced scouts and leaders)"

right away, it gives it more of a sense of permanence

and it seems a little more like a group that just needs a little help or a nudge once in awhile, as opposed to a group taht needs to be babied.

 

What sort of commitment is expected of the boys for just a 6 month trial run at being a patrol only to have it tossed aside eventually?  At least with the reassignments at the end of the trial period, it guarantees the boys will not be together.  If the boys figure this out, why should they try, just wait and see what happens is the easier route to take.  Of course it won't bode well for the boys who joined to be with their buddies.

[Eagle94-A1]

  Quit reacting the way they expect you to.  If you do something different than scream and yell, they won't know how to play the game.  Totally throws them off.

 

Actually me yelling at them DID throw all of them off. It also threw off the rest of the troop, and the adults. One of my friends stated, " I've never seen you get that angry in the 7 years I've known you. And you dealt with Cubs."

 

We tried to get a patrol meeting outside of the troop night and we met fierce resistance from the parents. A patrol only camp out may not be feasible, especially with how many camp outs the troop does a month. BUT we got a camp out coming up that may be the perfect, if we have the area to ourselves.  Local nature preserve has several campsites 90 to 500+ yards apart. The tentative schedule is practicing the camporee events.

 

Distance is your friend (one challenge solved). Competition is your friend (challenge two solved).