Screwup on the largest level

[perdidochas]

Feeling pretty sick about now.

 

New Committee Chair and relatively new Advancement Chair. Getting ready for some BORs on Monday and we were reviewing records. A kid wants a Life BOR.

 

And he's just turned 11.

 

Don't know how, but somehow he was registered when he was 9. And council must have accepted the application because he was on the council roster two years running. And I'm fairly certain that corrrect DOB is on the application. And although I haven't looked, I'm pretty certain the correct DOB is on his physical. Parents have no idea about Scouting and I'm 99.99999 percent they didn't have an idea about joining requirements. Dad is an retired fighter pilot from military. 

 

We also have another kid in the same boat. Also registered at age 9. And it looks like we had some crossovers who joined the troop at age 10 but did not have Arrow of Light. 

 

What should I do? Any suggestions? 

 

Not that it matters, but both are good Scouts and good kids. 

 

Well, had the boys finished 5th grade at 9 years old?  if so, it's legal. 

 

 

The requirements are:

Meet the age requirements. Be a boy who is 11 years old, or one who has completed the fifth grade or earned the Arrow of Light Award and is at least 10 years old, but is not yet 18 years old.

[Stosh]

This brings up another interesting twist to the whole issue.

 

11 years old or finished 5th grade.  What about the home-schooled kids who advance and get 5th grade completed earlier than those of their age?  My daughter could read at a 3rd grade level in kindergarten.  She also home schools her child.  The child has yet to develop well enough to speak, but she's quite fluent in sign language and has been able to communicate at least 4 months earlier than her first spoken words. 

 

What kind of wrench is this going to do to the age requirements vs. school grade completion requirements?  There are real life Duggie Howsers out there.

[TAHAWK]

"and is at least 10 years old"

[perdidochas]

"and is at least 10 years old"

That, in my reading, applies to the AOL only, not to the finished 5th grade....

[Stosh]

"and is at least 10 years old"

 

It'll give them that much more time to find other things out there in the world besides scouting.

 

My youngest daughter graduated valedictorian of her 800+ member high school class..... never got beyond Daisy.  With the ever increasing number of parents home-schooling, this might cull out the best and brightest from scouting.

[Krampus]

If he didn't meet these requirements then things should not count. It is pretty clear, no "what ifs" necessary.

 

If he was 9, home-schooled, 162 IQ, captain of his soccer team, learned to speak Japanese at 18 months and can compose a piano concerto...DOES NOT MATTER.

 

Boy Scouting is for boys 11 to 17 years of age. Boys also may become Boy Scouts if they have earned the Cub Scouting Arrow of Light Award and are at least 10 years old or have completed the fifth grade and are at least 10 years old.

 

-- BSA Website

[TAHAWK]

That, in my reading, applies to the AOL only, not to the finished 5th grade....

I respectfully disagree as a matter of English construction.

 

B.S.A. disagrees and is the final authority.

 

"Boy Scouting

The Boy Scout program is for boys who are 11 years old, are at least ten years old and have finished the fifth grade, or are at least ten years old and have earned the Arrow of Light rank as a Cub Scout."

 

"Boy Scouting is for boys 11 to 17 years of age. Boys also may become Boy Scouts if they have earned the Cub Scouting Arrow of Light Award and are at least 10 years old or have completed the fifth grade and are at least 10 years old."

[Stosh]

Yep, and the best and best and brightest would would have the most to offer seek alternative programs than Scouting.

[gumbymaster]

To turn the question around slightly ...

 

And this assumes (yeah yeah) that the paperwork (application) was correctly filled out ...

The BSA (national) was happy to take the Scout's registration fees

The BSA (Council) was happy to take the Scout's summer camp fees

The BSA (unit) was happy to take the Scout's dues and camping fees, etc.

 

So if we propose that the Scout would receive the consequence of having to repeat/reearn the efforts prior to eligibility; would that not also necessitate that the Scout also be refunded their costs, since they were not eligible?  How many of us think that that would happen?

 

I do not mean to cheapen the Eagle award, as others have drawn from my prior statements.  If the Scout does not know their stuff (which is a completely different problem), then by all means, hold back on the advancement.  But no one here has said that the Scout's progress was unearned (just could not have been earned); in fact, considering the younger age, in many ways it is all the more impressive that the Scout has achieved what they have.

 

Has anyone talked with the Scout and their family about what the problem was, and looked at what they might consider a resolution to be?

 

Again, not advocating ignoring the rules (and if someone deliberately went around them, I have no sympathy), but age is often an arbitrary distinction used to generally gauge when certain developmental and emotional abilities would come into play. 

 

As a thought experiment, if this youth had been promoted a grade, and was thus in the 6th grade on their 10th birthday.

The Tenderfoot rank could theoretically be earned on their 30th day (req. 10b)

Second class rank on their 31st day (I do not see a time-delay requirement in the 2015 requirements, feel free to correct me if I missed it)

First class rank on their 32nd day (again I seem to be missing the time-delay requirements that I thought were there, now admittedly 10 troop activities, 3 of which are overnight camping in those 32 days are unlikely, but go with me here).

Star rank on their 152nd day (req. 1, 4 months) (we'll assume a short February here).

Life rank on their 336th day. (req. 1, 6 months)

 

So while the circumstances to make it possible are extremely unlikely, we could have a 10 year old Life Scout. (or the more scary thought, only 17 months to earn Eagle).

 

Do I want such a thing, by no means; but I am also not in favor of Scoutmasters who arbitrarily hold back an otherwise qualified scout from a rank simply because they don't believe that he is old enough.

[Krampus]

@@gumbymaster...it should be caveat emptor and not caveat venditor.

 

Assuming the form was filled out with the real birth date and BSA made the mistake, no credit and fees paid back by national.

 

Assuming the form was filled out with false birth date, no credit and the Scout starts from scratch.

 

Assuming the form was filled out and honest mistakes were made on both sides, no credit for stuff earned before eligible and full credit for MBs earned after he was eligible. Ranks have to be re-earned.

 

That's how I would do it.

[Eagle94-A1]

I respectfully disagree as a matter of English construction.

 

B.S.A. disagrees and is the final authority.

 

"Boy Scouting

The Boy Scout program is for boys who are 11 years old, are at least ten years old and have finished the fifth grade, or are at least ten years old and have earned the Arrow of Light rank as a Cub Scout."

 

"Boy Scouting is for boys 11 to 17 years of age. Boys also may become Boy Scouts if they have earned the Cub Scouting Arrow of Light Award and are at least 10 years old or have completed the fifth grade and are at least 10 years old."

 

The challenge is that the BSA HAS changed who can be involved in Scouts since the statement above was originally made.

 

Requirement 1 of the new Scout Rank requirements states the following:

 

Meet the age requirements. Be a boy who is 11 years old, or one who has completed the fifth grade or earned the Arrow of Light Award and is at least 10 years old, but is not yet 18 years old.

 

So using that requirement we have 3 different starting points: A) 11 years of age B) completed 5th grade C) Earned AOL and is 10 years old.

 

 

 

I don't like this. I think something similar to Venturing would be better, i.e. 11 years, or completed 5th grade and 10.5 years, or Earned the AOL and is 10.  Still three starting points, but alot closer together.

[TAHAWK]

If the statements appear today on B.S.A.'s Internet sites, they are current statements.

 

"So using that requirement we have 3 different starting points: A) 11 years of age B) completed 5th grade C) Earned AOL and is 10 years old."

 

"When a Cub Scout earns the Arrow of Light, may he immediately join a Boy Scout troop?

Boy Scouting is available to boys who have earned the Arrow of Light and are at least ten years old—so a Webelos Scout who has earned the Arrow of Light is eligible to join a troop immediately (provided he is at least ten years old)."

 

"Boy Scouting is for boys 11 to 17 years of age. Boys also may become Boy Scouts if they have earned the Cub Scouting Arrow of Light Award and are at least 10 years old or have completed the fifth grade and are at least 10 years old." B.S.A. February 9, 2016.

Edited February 10, 2016 by TAHAWK

[Eagle94-A1]

Again, the BSA's lack of consistency shows it ugly face again! i know your state is on BSA's Website, but so is the

 

"Meet the age requirements. Be a boy who is 11 years old, or one who has completed the fifth grade or earned the Arrow of Light Award and is at least 10 years old, but is not yet 18 years old." I made ( color added to show the three separate sentance that make up this compound sentence. )

 

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/2016BoyScoutRequirements_8.14.2015.pdf

[Peregrinator]

I would read that as: "Be a {(boy who is 11 years old), or [(one who has completed the fifth grade or earned the Arrow of Light Award) and is at least 10 years old]}"

 

Although I do admit that's not taking the precedence of logical operators into account. AND takes precedence over OR. If BSA wanted to be completely clear, they would restate it as:

 

"Be a boy who is 11 years old, or one who is 10 years old and has either (a) completed the fifth grade or (b) earned the Arrow of Light Award."

[Krampus]

Let's face it. No matter HOW you read that section, it is clear the intent was that a boy should be AT LEAST 10 years old and having completed the fifth grade (excluding the AOL requirement for now).

 

If the kid in question was under 10 and had not completed the fifth grade then nothing earned should qualify.

 

I suspect the only grey area here is whether the kid was home schooled at mom says he completed the fifth grade; though I suspect you need a few state documents to validate that. It still would not negate the age requirement.

 

As Jean-Luc Picard said, "The line must be drawn here. This far. No farther!"