Screwup on the largest level

[Krampus]

This CANNOT be allowed to stand!

 

If he joined early there is NO WAY the national Eagle review will uphold his Eagle.

 

I know we don't punish a Scout for an adult mistake, but at some point we need to be realistic at how UNFAIR this would be to other Scouts who did not make Eagle for other reasons.

 

He's young. Make him start again. He will make it.

[qwazse]

This CANNOT be allowed to stand!

 

If he joined early there is NO WAY the national Eagle review will uphold his Eagle.

 

I know we don't punish a Scout for an adult mistake, but at some point we need to be realistic at how UNFAIR this would be to other Scouts who did not make Eagle for other reasons.

 

He's young. Make him start again. He will make it.

I honestly don't feel my Eagle is sullied because I only had six years in which to earn it while some other kid had eight.

But then again, I don't think there should be any upper age limit on earning it. And I would look forward to a kid like this taking on the responsibility of making sure his ASMs (who may have forgotten or never learned a few scout skills) are all first class scouters.

 

I suppose @@Krampus is right. Someone's gonna cry foul at this. Even if the boy is the total package. So, make sure your DE runs this up the chain so that he/she hears from National about how you should handle this.

[blw2]

....... So, make sure your DE runs this up the chain so that he/she hears from National about how you should handle this.

And do you think the OP should push for something in writing to give to this young scout and his parents?

both as an explanation either way

as well as documentation for use the next time the question is brought up... like say at his eagle BOR......

[qwazse]

And do you think the OP should push for something in writing to give to this young scout and his parents?

both as an explanation either way

as well as documentation for use the next time the question is brought up... like say at his eagle BOR......

naw. The handbook is all the writing you need.

What you're really getting from national is how to correct things on advancement reports (rank, MB completion dates) so it won't confound a future Eagle application (be that next year, or six years from now).

[Stosh]

So how does one adjust for dates of the T-FC requirements that were signed off prior to turning 10 1/2 with AOL?  If the TF rank is attained prior to joining age, does it count?  If it doesn't then the Star Life and Eagle are invalid because the after earning FC, serve for 4 months, etc.  It kinda has a domino affect that one has to resolve as far as honestly signing off on the requirements.

 

I'm not advocating anything, but if the boy didn't "earn" TF or maybe 2C, before he turned age eligible, what does that do to the validation of the other ranks.  It makes for an interesting situational ethics issue.

[TAHAWK]

One argument would be that he could not earn anything when he was not a "Scout" as that term is defined by B.S.A.

[qwazse]

So how does one adjust for dates of the T-FC requirements that were signed off prior to turning 10 1/2 with AOL? If the TF rank is attained prior to joining age, does it count? If it doesn't then the Star Life and Eagle are invalid because the after earning FC, serve for 4 months, etc. It kinda has a domino affect that one has to resolve as far as honestly signing off on the requirements.

 

I'm not advocating anything, but if the boy didn't "earn" TF or maybe 2C, before he turned age eligible, what does that do to the validation of the other ranks. It makes for an interesting situational ethics issue.

That's precisely why the call to National. This wouldn't be their first rodeo.

But I'm figuring one doesn't adjust any of the requirement sign-off dates except boards of review. The PL saw the boy do the requirements. SM had a conference. The boards approved everything, albeit prematurely.

I suspect they'd shift the dates for T2F to a month after eligibility; Star, 5 months after eligibility, Life 11 months after eligibility. Or, they might not shift anything except the date of the Life BoR -- since that rank has yet to be conferred.

One argument would be that he could not earn anything when he was not a "Scout" as that term is defined by B.S.A.

One would be hard pressed to argue that he could not sharpen an axe and knife safely at age 10 if he demonstrated sharpening a knife and axe then, and seems to have not forgotten any of it in the interim. Edited February 8, 2016 by qwazse

[Krampus]

One argument would be that he could not earn anything when he was not a "Scout" as that term is defined by B.S.A.

 

This is it! He was not eligible to earn anything, so nothing was earned. Anything earned AFTER he was 11 or completed the 5th grade, then arguably that CAN count.

 

If BSA upholds this how can they turn down ANY Scout who starts earning stuff before he's eligible...or for that matter, AFTER he's eligible?

[qwazse]

This is it! He was not eligible to earn anything, so nothing was earned. Anything earned AFTER he was 11 or completed the 5th grade, then arguably that CAN count.

 

If BSA upholds this how can they turn down ANY Scout who starts earning stuff before he's eligible...or for that matter, AFTER he's eligible?

I think you mean to say "AFTER he's ineligible".

I'm not sure one opens the door to the other.

 

The wording of the T2F requirements don't explicitly say "upon meeting the age eligibility requirements". That is a requirement for Scout, but before last year that badge wasn't really required to be completed before working on Tenderfoot.  It stymies me why anyone wouldn't have their boys complete it, but it doesn't surprise me with that some competent Webelos who seem to be taking to this scouting stuff quiet readily, the actual age of the new boys would be overlooked. I bet this thing happens a lot and is just getting noticed because of internet advancement and someone out there comparing dates on a large scale after the fact.

 

As far as rechartering, if it slipped by for one troop's internet recharter, it did for all of the others. I do find it odd, because the rechartering program dinged me for one of my venturers who completed 8th grade before turning 14. This was the year the rules were changed to make any 13-year-old 8th grade graduate eligible. Clearly the rule didn't make it into the computer logic's rules (which were probably hard-coded, which as @@Krampus would tell is the bane of most IT projects). To push my charter through, I had to change her birthdate. Then I corrected it on the following year's charter.

 

Makes me wonder if someone fudged the 9/10 y.o. kid's DoB when rechartering during his first year.

[gumbymaster]

An interesting conundrum...

 

I am not advocating running around the spirit of requirements, but the GTA also clearly indicates that youth are not held responsible for the mistakes of the Adults.

 

To Life or not to Life is really more of a unit issue.  If the council's advancement records indicate at least 6 months since Star was earned, I do not think anyone will go out of their way to backtrack the age of the scout before that.

 

So the real issue is when the Scout is ready for Eagle.  If the Scout could have legitimately been in the unit for 22 months by that point in time, it again is unlikely to become an issue.  If it does become an issue, the Scout's best defense would be to have copies of the registered scout card showing that they were members for the time enrolled; and ideally backed by the unit (or council's) physical copy of the original application to show that the scout did not misstate their date of birth.

 

All of that said, while it is good to have the Council or District aware of the issue, what is the stance of the parents and Scout?  If they are aware of the issue, and they willing to work with a plan (whatever that may be) to help correct for the original mistake.  that plan could be the Scout taking more time to earn their remaining rank; maybe spend more time enjoying the experience; or taking the time to plan and execute such a kick*** eagle project that Council/National would be too embarrassed to raise the age issue.

 

Clearly, if the original application was correct and summer camp physicals were correct, then a lot of adult eyes had an opportunity to observe and correct this mistake and did not.  Now if those documents reflected an incorrect birthdate, they all bets are off; the parents (and indirectly the Scout) clearly have a responsibility here.

[Krampus]

I think you mean to say "AFTER he's ineligible".

I'm not sure one opens the door to the other.

Correct. My bad.

 

The wording of the T2F requirements don't explicitly say "upon meeting the age eligibility requirements". That is a requirement for Scout, but before last year that badge wasn't really required to be completed before working on Tenderfoot.

But since you have to earn Scout before any other rank, if you are not eligible for Scout anything after that is moot.

 

Makes me wonder if someone fudged the 9/10 y.o. kid's DoB when rechartering during his first year.

Yup. I was thinking the same thing. I will bet you someone somewhere either gave the wrong data or put the wrong data in. Am thinking it is the former.

 

 

I am not advocating running around the spirit of requirements, but the GTA also clearly indicates that youth are not held responsible for the mistakes of the Adults.

Yes. But the GTA meant ELIGIBLE Scouts. He's not a Scout. Not at the time. You cannot apply the rules for Scouts to non-Scouts.

 

To Life or not to Life is really more of a unit issue.  If the council's advancement records indicate at least 6 months since Star was earned, I do not think anyone will go out of their way to backtrack the age of the scout before that.

Every time we look the other way on something like this we cheapen the path to Eagle for all.

 

So the real issue is when the Scout is ready for Eagle.  If the Scout could have legitimately been in the unit for 22 months by that point in time, it again is unlikely to become an issue.

I'd say ANYTHING earned before he was 11 years old or completed the 5th grade should be UN-EARNED and needs to be RE-EARNED!! He was not eligible. Otherwise, ANY Cub Scout should be allowed to work on ANY Boy Scout badge prior to becoming Scout they want. If you move the line for one you need to move it for everyone.

 

Clearly, if the original application was correct and summer camp physicals were correct, then a lot of adult eyes had an opportunity to observe and correct this mistake and did not.  Now if those documents reflected an incorrect birthdate, they all bets are off; the parents (and indirectly the Scout) clearly have a responsibility here.

IMHO, the burden is national, council and the parents. They need to find out what the original application said. If national made the mistake they need to find the solution. If the parents lied, then he's ineligible and should have everything prior to being eligible taken back.

[TAHAWK]

I think you mean to say "AFTER he's ineligible".

I'm not sure one opens the door to the other.

 

The wording of the T2F requirements don't explicitly say "upon meeting the age eligibility requirements". That is a requirement for Scout, but before last year that badge wasn't really required to be completed before working on Tenderfoot.  It stymies me why anyone wouldn't have their boys complete it, but it doesn't surprise me with that some competent Webelos who seem to be taking to this scouting stuff quiet readily, the actual age of the new boys would be overlooked. I bet this thing happens a lot and is just getting noticed because of internet advancement and someone out there comparing dates on a large scale after the fact.

 

As far as rechartering, if it slipped by for one troop's internet recharter, it did for all of the others. I do find it odd, because the rechartering program dinged me for one of my venturers who completed 8th grade before turning 14. This was the year the rules were changed to make any 13-year-old 8th grade graduate eligible. Clearly the rule didn't make it into the computer logic's rules (which were probably hard-coded, which as @@Krampus would tell is the bane of most IT projects). To push my charter through, I had to change her birthdate. Then I corrected it on the following year's charter.

 

Makes me wonder if someone fudged the 9/10 y.o. kid's DoB when rechartering during his first year.

 

 

The answer would go something like this:

 

If he is not a "Scout," how can he earn Scouting ranks.  It is implicit that one must be a Boy Scout to earn Boy Scout ranks. 

 

It is explicit in Second and First Class requirement that one accomplish certain things "since joining.

 

It is explicit in the Guide to Advancement that only Boy Scouts can advance: "Advancement is the process by which youth members of the Boy Scouts of America progress from rank to rank."

 

A youth member must "Meet the age requirements"

 

If I, as a MBC, tell a Scout that he need only try to start the three WIlderness Survival MB  fires, as opposed to actually starting the fires, or that he need only attend X number of sessions to get the badge, he has not earned the MB regardless of whose "fault" it is.  Ditto for his sister earning X rank after I told her girls can be Boy Scouts.

 

Council has no authority to change the rules.

[fred johnson]

CherokeeScouter - Take this to the council registrar or director of advancement.  I'd also copy the district advancement chair, but I'd take this up a level immediately as you need to get it in the hands of someone who's going to have more decision making with the issue.  

 

IMHO, on this board, you'll get lots of information and both sides of the story ... but you won't get an answer.  Good luck.  

 

As for my own opinion ... if the scout was registered by BSA, he was registered.  Should he have been?  Probably not.  But they accepted money, processed the registration, processed advancement, etc.  IMHO, it's water over the dam and now how do we deal the best with the current rank.

 

But you need to also make sure his advancement record is clean enough for national to handle if he earns Eagle.

Edited February 8, 2016 by fred johnson

[Krampus]

As for my own opinion ... if the scout was registered by BSA, he was registered.  Should he have been?  Probably not.  But they accepted money, processed the registration, processed advancement, etc.  IMHO, it's water over the dam and now how do we deal the best with the current rank.

 

 

What if the parents lied? Not saying they did, but what if? Still a scout in your eyes then?

[TAHAWK]

Not that it's relevant, but not until met age requirement.