Signs that your unit might be Adult Led

[blw2]

The other current thread about food at COH made me think of a topic to throw out.

 

What are things you see that might be a red flag that adults might be over stepping?

 

I'm new to the troop as an adult volunteer, and I'm trying hard to keep an open mind and not judge too much.  & that's hard for a person with my personality type (engineer and naturally look for issues that need to be corrected)

I'm also planning to go with the flow as much as absolutely possible, and not backseat drive or in anyway make it seem that i want to take over... especially early on as I both learn & earn trust

BUT.... as a committee member, it seems that part of my responsibility is to "suggest and advise"

 

So, all that having been said.....

Of course there's the obvious stuff.... perhaps adults talking in an average troop meeting beyond the SM minute, an adult in charge of a 3rd year webelos patrol, or stuff like that.....

 

but what are some smaller things you have noticed, that in hindsight turned out to be pretty good indicators?

 

A few little examples I've noticed, that might be an indicator.... or they might be perfectly ok in the overall balance of things.  At this point I'm just looking at them as "little yellow flags" for things to keep in mind, but not as things that I feel I need to address at this point.

 

Thumbing through a troop POR job description handout, I noticed that several of the positions "report to" the SPL.... great.... But more than a few are described as "reporting to" the SM.  My first thought is that all should be reporting to the SPL....

 

The food at the COH had all the markings of being thought up by adults, planned by adults, and executed by adults....

 

all emails to the troop... reminders, directives, instructions, etc.... are send from adults to "troop", with no indication that a youth leader asked that adult to do this...

 

So my question:

What are things you see that might be a red flag that adults might be over stepping?

 

And some secondary questions:

At what point, or give an example of, something that is big enough that needs to be brought up or addressed now, or at the next committee mtg?

 

and how is that best done in a positive way without seeming like a backseat driver, or something?

 

 

 

[Stosh]

One of the first indicators is: "Who's really running the show?"  about 95% of the time it's the adults.

 

If the boys are always going to adults for advice, guidance, the adults are running the show.

 

If the adults are constantly telling the boys to go ask their PL, the boys still are looking to the adults for leadership.

 

The adults don't trust the boys to make the "correct" decisions.

 

The adults won't let the boys fail.

 

The adults try and cover their interfering with the running the program by "being one of the boys".

 

But most importantly of all!??  The coffee can in the kitchen/chuck box is over two years old and still has coffee in it and the seat of the adult uniform pants don't show any wear.

[blw2]

.....The adults won't let the boys fail......

 

ooo, I like that one!

 

In the conversations I've had with fellow scouters about this whole topic of what is boy lead, I think this concept has resulted in the biggest eyes! 

My favorite one was from somebody on this forum, sorry I can't give proper credit....

but it was a story about scouts on a hike, and the SM was pulling up the rear, following the troop.....  and he had given the map and compass to the SPL.  I like the reactions I get from that story.

[Krampus]

If your adults address the troop or patrols (unless it is a health or safety issue), you are adult-led.

[qwazse]

ooo, I like that one!

 

In the conversations I've had with fellow scouters about this whole topic of what is boy lead, I think this concept has resulted in the biggest eyes! 

My favorite one was from somebody on this forum, sorry I can't give proper credit....

but it was a story about scouts on a hike, and the SM was pulling up the rear, following the troop.....  and he had given the map and compass to the SPL.  I like the reactions I get from that story.

You're welcome. But, that's pretty much my mode of operation ... even when the troop was leaning toward adult-led. It's from taking that 1st class land navigation requirement quite seriously.

 

But I guess that brings up a series of things that adults desire (mainly because they are unprepared for others' mistakes):

• Wanting to cover the hike with no wrong turns. Unprepared to walk a mile or two out of your way.
• Wanting the grilled cheese sandwich with no burnt sides. Unprepared with hotsauce in the pocket.
• Wanting the knot to look exactly like the picture. Unprepared to test its function.
• Wanting every pack to be perfect. Unprepared with that extra sleeping bag.
• Wanting a fail-safe menu. Unprepared to be pleasantly surprised.
• Wanting to be in earshot of the boys. Unprepared to set your shelter at a distance.

Actually, all of them kind of reflect a pessimism that seems to squelch the joy of watching boys grow into men.

[Stosh]

ooo, I like that one!

 

In the conversations I've had with fellow scouters about this whole topic of what is boy lead, I think this concept has resulted in the biggest eyes! 

My favorite one was from somebody on this forum, sorry I can't give proper credit....

but it was a story about scouts on a hike, and the SM was pulling up the rear, following the troop.....  and he had given the map and compass to the SPL.  I like the reactions I get from that story.

 

I may know who that person was, there are not that many scouters out there that will allow the boys to lose someone in the woods, let them take a wrong turn on a hike, or go off on an outing without food.  It's pretty amazing how much more focused the boys are on details when they know the adults are not going to cover for them.

 

Wanting to cover the hike with no wrong turns. Unprepared to walk a mile or two out of your way.  I got my butt chewed out by the SM when I was an ASM because I let the boys walk a half day at Philmont, knowing they were on the wrong trail. 

Edited February 2, 2016 by Stosh

[Eagle94-A1]

I  know an SM who did that at Philmont. He's been there before and knew when the crew took the wrong path. He just followed along. 1.5 hours later, they realize they took the wrong trail. OOPS.

 

I know when I was caboose one time on a troop backpacking trip, the Scouts I was with missed the switchback that led to the campsite. I didn't even know we missed it as I was following the leader, and trying to keep one of our new guys encouraged.  THANKFULLY the LC sent out a search party, and we only had to double back about 15-20 minutes.

[MattR]

Who makes what decisions? How long is a committee meeting compared to a PLC meeting?

 

Also, it's not a binary thing where it is or isn't boy led. We just got a foot of snow and I got email from our co saying they'd tell us this morning whether the building would be closed. I forwarded it to the spl and made it very clear the adults would do nothing to get this info out. The spl is doing great. Some parents, however, aren't real happy. In a nutshell, they don't trust the scouts. I'm sending out a lot more email telling the parents to back off than what it would have taken to just solve this on my own. Are we scout led? We're trying.

[Eagledad]

I have seen a lot of good boy run programs, but I have never seen one where all the scouts were in full uniform at the same time.

 

Barry

[Krampus]

I  know an SM who did that at Philmont. He's been there before and knew when the crew took the wrong path. He just followed along. 1.5 hours later, they realize they took the wrong trail. OOPS.

 

I know when I was caboose one time on a troop backpacking trip, the Scouts I was with missed the switchback that led to the campsite. I didn't even know we missed it as I was following the leader, and trying to keep one of our new guys encouraged.  THANKFULLY the LC sent out a search party, and we only had to double back about 15-20 minutes.

 

I try to always know where I am. As the adult leader I am the guy the lawyers will come after if something happens. I have the training and skills to know.

 

Topos and GPS waypoints are your friend.

[qwazse]

I try to always know where I am. As the adult leader I am the guy the lawyers will come after if something happens. I have the training and skills to know.

Yep, do your best to always know where you are. That way, you'll have a good estimate of how much your destination arrival time is being delayed, and can reasonably ask the group for a map review before the distance they must recoup is beyond their ability to do so safely.

Topos and GPS waypoints are your friend.

But topos on GPS units can be your enemy ...

Just ask my scouts who were swayed by the SM who said "Says here ... there's a trail just across this ravine!"

A 80 foot drop, 75 yards of laurel thicket, 200 foot climb, and four miles off course later ... well ... let's just say MY track record of orienteering blunders has been forgot for the past three years. 

 

Land navigation is at its best an exercise in communication. What one pair of eyes missed, another pair can fill in. Success is when all boys are in a circle around an oriented map, telling each other how what they see over the shoulder of the guy across from them is depicted on that piece of paper.

Edited February 2, 2016 by qwazse

[Eagle94-A1]

I try to always know where I am. As the adult leader I am the guy the lawyers will come after if something happens. I have the training and skills to know.

 

Mea culpa. That was a very good lesson for me. Even when dealing with issues, have situational awareness.

[Stosh]

The whole idea is to not be lost when the boys are.  It's been my experience that's not hard to do.  One is only as one's navigator.  Once everyone starts second guessing him and change plans by committee consensus, it starts to get interesting.

[Krampus]

We had a similar issue this past summer. Evening hike from camp to event post then night hike back. Had the crew post a glow stick at camp. Dropped a pin on my gps and marked it on the topo. Starry night so took my heavenly coordinates and lastly timed the hike by segment on my watch. Suggested the crew stop every .25 mile and look back to see the terrain and stars at key points.

 

Crew got lost but found their way back on track several times. I knew where we were the whole time. Stars are your friends.

[fred johnson]

 

Thumbing through a troop POR job description handout, I noticed that several of the positions "report to" the SPL.... great.... But more than a few are described as "reporting to" the SM.  My first thought is that all should be reporting to the SPL....

 

The food at the COH had all the markings of being thought up by adults, planned by adults, and executed by adults....

 

all emails to the troop... reminders, directives, instructions, etc.... are send from adults to "troop", with no indication that a youth leader asked that adult to do this...

 

 

• POR jobs report to SM ... yeah ... agreed.

• Food at COH ... nit picking ... usually it's the moms who bring a pot luck dish.  IMHO, this is a learning path.  Recently our older scouts started texting each other and we find food mysteriously showing up at troop meetings.  One kid brings plates.  Another cup cakes.  Another mountain dew.  SM and I just smile.  So what if parents bring food to COH.  ... SCOUTS MIMIC BEHAVIOR THEY SEE.  IMHO, that's the best way for us to teach.  We demonstrate behaviors we want the scouts to learn.  ... It's sort of fun to see them now doing their own activities.

• Emails ... in our troop ... emails are for parents.  Kids don't really read emails.  They text and they text a lot if your troop is active.  Parents want to know what's going on.  I'd rather be sending them email to keep them up to date then to have them nag their kid about the details. 

 

IMHO, you see "adult led" in the program structure, the activities and how the scouts behave.

 

- Forms ... PLC scouts carrying forms around to track their POR.  Food planning forms. Equipment planning forms.  Patrol schedule forms.  Troop schedule forms. Forms about planning.  Forms about planning to plan. 

 

- How the troop is structured?  Does it really look like how scouts would want to structure themselves?  Or did "adults" convince scouts it's the best and scouts are repeating what they were convinced was right.  ... even though it's probably not how the scouts would choose to spend their time themselves.

 

- What are the activities?  are they things the scouts would enjoy?  Odds are if they are, the adults are listening to the scouts and letting the scouts drive the program.

 

- Are the scouts having fun? 

 

- Most importantly, when you look at the troop ... do you see scouts with scouts ... or do you see scouts with adults mixed in.   Scouts need time together to form bonds of friendship, to storm, to norm and to learn to perform together.  IMHO, that's the best indication of boy led. 

 

....

 

And to be honest, the whole "boy led" diatribe is more about adults comparing who's troop is doing it right and knocking the other guy's troop or the other scout leaders.  It has very little practical to communicate about helping the scouts.  I really would not mind never ever again hearing the term boy led.