Den Leader Issue

[Ranman328]

Wow!  I didn't realize I would receive this many responses.  Understand these are just some of the issues we were having.  For our Fall Family campout, we asked families to show up between 8:00am-9:30am to set up.  We would have our Safety discussion and go over the camp rules and agenda for the weekend at 10:00am.  She told her Den not to show up until 1:00pm because she couldn't get there until then.  This is the time when the Tiger Families need to become familiar with Pack Camping and hear the safety speech, etc.  We had break outs for Dens to complete activities under the new program that need to be done at campouts and we had some Pack Activities as well.  Come to find out she separated her Den from the rest of the Pack and did the same activities we did but on her own.  I had many parents asking why the Tigers were not involved with the rest of the Pack.  Regarding the paperwork, there is also an "Outing Checklist" in the new leader and Den Leader book used for preparing for a Den Outing.  She refused to use that either.  My feelings are a Uniform should be worn so parents can see who the leaders are in the Pack or if they have any questions, they know who to go to.  It also helps in recruiting as far as I am concerned.  I feel if you see a lot of adults wearing the uniform, people are not so shy to get involved.  My Assistant Cubmaster and I visit Den Meetings regularly.  The only two people that have a problem with it are this leader and her husband that is a Webelos II Den Leader.  As I stated before, she is also a Girl Scout Leader and it appears she is trying to run the Cub Scout Den like Girl Scouts.  Another concern I have is that not a single scout in her Den has completed the Bobcat yet but they have completed the entire Tiger Program.  I have questioned this only to be told they are almost ready.  We include a Den Leader section in our Committee Meetings so the Den Leaders can go over what they are doing or ask questions of other leaders on certain topics.  We did have separate meetings for Den Leaders but it became too difficult for people to attend all of them.  The only person not showing is her.  All the other Den Leaders are happy and don't have any problems.

[Stosh]

Does the WDL husband show up in uniform for all the adult meetings for his den??

[Ranman328]

Yes he has a uniform. She is the only Direct Contact Leader not in uniform. We don't require our Secretary, Advancement chair, treasurer to wear it. She has admitted to having a control issue. Her husband was a Boy Scout and in the Order of the Arrow. I am not sure where the disconnect is and why he doesn't step in.

[Stosh]

Anyone bother to ask?  In the long run, it would seem that he and their son will  eventually end up as collateral damage to this political ping pong game going on.

[Ranman328]

Stosh- I don't follow you, what ping pong game are you talking about? How would her husband and son be collateral damage? I am confused by your posts. I was asking for advice on how to get a leader in line with the rest of the Pack. It appears your advice is to let them do what they want and follow whatever rules and guideline they want. Then we have a Den that does not participate in pack events and a group of parents that don't get involved. How do you run a Pack when you don't have volunteers to step up and run events? What do we tell our District during our Unit Assessment?

[Krampus]

I was asking for advice on how to get a leader in line with the rest of the Pack. It appears your advice is to let them do what they want and follow whatever rules and guideline they want. Then we have a Den that does not participate in pack events and a group of parents that don't get involved. How do you run a Pack when you don't have volunteers to step up and run events? What do we tell our District during our Unit Assessment?

 

In my Pack we used to do the following:

• We gave all leaders the pack calendar so that they could see the important dates and plan around them.
• We had made up for each DL a sample annual calendar specifically for their rank. That allowed them to see when certain milestones needed to be done (e.g., Bobcat, etc.) during the year.
• We gave them all copies of the Program Helps (not sure what it is called now) so that they saw how to plan out their year.
• We developed what we can "Cub Year in a Box" which was an entire year of meeting ideas, planned on a calendar, with supplies, contact information, etc., so that they could have an example of how easy it is to plan out their year. If they were running behind the box could be used to plan and execute a meeting.
• We met regularly with the leaders to make sure they had everything they needed.
• We had a role description which DETAILED what the DL needed to do, what the important processes were (i.e., how to request a tour permit, when they were needed, BSA policies, Pack policies, Pack procedures around camping, travel, food purchase, reimbursement, etc.

Essentially, we built (over time) a small notebook which all DLs got which outline their year for them. They could use it verbatim or do their own thing. They had an example of EVERYTHING they needed to do their job. We held check points with them where they needed to report their scouts' status on rank advancement. This was done at least monthly. This eliminated any surprises 4-5 months down the road.

 

Hope this helps.

[Stosh]

Stosh- I don't follow you, what ping pong game are you talking about?  Sorry, it was just a way of describing the back and forth arguments you seem to be involved with.  Kind of a back and forth, getting nowhere kind of thing.  How would her husband and son be collateral damage? Also again, using a colloquialism, "If Mama ain't happy, nobody's happy"  If one were to upset this gal, she gets ticked off, quits, (or is removed by the unit) I'm thinking that it won't be much time before Dad will be leaving along with son.  Then this unit is going to be seeking out two new DL's one for Tigers and one for Web II's.  If that's still not clear let me know.  I am confused by your posts. I was asking for advice on how to get a leader in line with the rest of the Pack. When working with volunteers, one has very little leverage in these sort of dealings.  One can't fire them, if they don't comply with what one wants, one can't punish them, there's really not much one can do.  It appears your advice is to let them do what they want and follow whatever rules and guideline they want. If one's only option is to retain this person because no one else will take the DL position, then the answer is yes.  If one has other parents willing to step up, then the option is on the table to ask her to step down, but if she gets ticked, one may also wish to have another WDL ready to step up into the spot that Dad is going to vacate when Mom leaves.  Then we have a Den that does not participate in pack events and a group of parents that don't get involved. The committee is going to need to decide it's priorities.  How important is this DL?  How do you run a Pack when you don't have volunteers to step up and run events? I guess then one has to live with what they have.  It may not be pretty, but it's better than nothing.  What do we tell our District during our Unit Assessment?  Tell them the truth.  Which is, the committee didn't properly prepare and vet this person before offering the position to her.  They didn't tell her anything she would need to do up front and got a commitment from her to begin with.  Instead they took whatever they could get and then realized they hadn't done their homework.  Now in order to not make things worse they have to settle for what they got.  This is always one of the pitfalls of just filling in spots with warm bodies.  After working with volunteers for many years as a pastor, I can assure everyone that one has to deal very differently with volunteers than they do employees, and it's never pretty.  If one were to tick off the third cousin of the biggest contributor to your congregation because you implied you might not baptize the third cousin twice-removed because third cousin twice removed hasn't been in church for 25 years, it could affect the financial bottom-line.  What you have here with this woman is just chump change.    So I go back to my original position, either cut her loose, and maybe loose Dad and son in the process, or if the kids are having fun and the parents don't mind, just turn a blind eye and learn from the mistake.  Do better with DL selections or take your chances with warm-bodies.  I would recommend next time around going with @@Krampus's suggestion of putting together up front all the expectations one has with all DL"s and have them agree to them before they take the position.

[Fehler]

I know exactly what I'd tell my District if they tried to pull some "Unit Assessment" crap on me.

 

Deal with what you have, smile and nod.  Keep the Tiger Den parents informed of Pack events separately from the Den Mother (don't let her be the only conduit of information to these families).  If she wants to award the Tiger Badge, ask her if she's aware that the Bobcat needs to be done first, and offer to help and award both.

 

And keep an eye on Dad's future plans.  Is he planning on staying with older son in the Troop as an ASM, or maybe he'd like to stay in the Pack and be the younger son's DL once he's done with the WDL thing.  You haven't mentioned him much, so I assume he's working out fine.

[Stosh]

I know exactly what I'd tell my District if they tried to pull some "Unit Assessment" crap on me.

 

Get used to it, the UC's are all expected to pull these things off in their units.    So far I've been avoiding it but it's going to reach up and bite me sooner or later. 

[gumbymaster]

At this point, if this were my pack, my response would probably be to run out the clock.

Let the year finish, your Webelos II's den will bridge and you will have less collateral damage to control.

Make your plans for next year's wolf den, and try and find a parent willing to lead, or maybe the husband/father completing Webelos II wants to step back into it, and she was just keeping the seat warm for him.  Were you happy with his performance?

 

In either case, don't invite her to be the Wolf Den leader, primarily because ...

(1) If she does not wish to use the methods of scouting (uniforming, etc), then she is not a suitable leader

(2) If she lies, she is failing to follow the Scout oath and Laws and is not a suitable leader

(3) If she is failing to follow the guide to safe scouting or other official scouting (not pack) policies (it is not clear if she is or is not), then she is not a suitable leader.

 

While it is annoying to you that she wants to run a program independent of the pack, other than pack camping, I'm not sure she is breaking any BSA rules in doing so.

 

I view my role as a Cubmaster as being there to support the den leaders, my pack program is there to help them complete the advancement of their Scouts, and to provide recognition and fun.  If they have their own way of doing things, as long as it conforms to BSA rules (GTSS, etc) and is consistent with the Scout Oath and Laws, and achieves the aims and methods of Scouting, so be it.

 

There are a couple of my Den leaders that do things differently than I would, and that is their privilege for stepping up to lead.

Edited February 2, 2016 by gumbymaster

[Stosh]

Find out what she's good at and beg her to take that spot because she'd be more valuable there than merely running a den. 

[Ranman328]

All very good ideas and I thank all of you for taking the time to read and respond to them.  To answer some questions.  I thought The husband was a good WDL but while attending an Eagle Ceremony this past weekend I was speaking with one of the parents from his Den and asked them if they were excited to be moving up to a Troop.  The mom cocked her head and said "We are not going to go to a Troop with him!"  I was taken back as I figured all was OK.  She proceeds to tell me that five of the six Web II scouts are not going with him to the Troop he and his son are going to.  It appears that they are not happy with the way things have gone.  He apparently does not have control over his meetings and his own son runs wild.  I figured that when our ACM did the Den visit with him in the fall all was well.  Little did I know that the ACM gave them a heads up he was coming.  I am scheduled to do a Den Visit with the Tiger Den tonight and talk to parents about helping out with the Blue and Gold Banquet since the Den Leader has not responded to the email asking for volunteers.  We will see how things go.  I am also scheduled to do a visit with the Webelos II Den on Thursday and talk to the Parents about the Webelos to Scouts Transition since it appears the Den Leader was not fully honest when he told us at the December Committee Meeting that all the Scouts had done their Troop visits and chose a troop.  I have done several of the Unit Assessments as the Committee Chairman and this will be my second 8 pager as the cubmaster.  We have pass with flying colors in all.  Our Committee did vet the DL as she started as an Assistant DL to her husband.  She attended all the training and appeared to have a good grasp on the BSA.  She then took a position as the Pack Treasurer and did ok at that as well.  Part of the problem with both of them is they are both "overachiever parents"  They were very upset when the Belt loop program went away as they wanted their son to earn all of them.  They want their Webelos II son to earn all the Webelos Activity Badges.  I get the feeling that sometimes it is not about teaching or learning but getting the bling.  Just today, our Advancement Chair emailed me about the Tiger DL sending her a request about a Healthy Unit award.  She wants to put her entire Den in for the award.  Problem is she has to complete a spreadsheet showing that each scout has completed the 3-6-9 (3 meetings eating fruits and veggies, 6 meetings drinking water and 9 meetings doing 15 minutes of physical activity at each meeting).  She doesn't like doing any paperwork.  Three of her Scouts have not been in the Den long enough to complete the requirements.  She hasn't even had nine meetings all year yet.  This will be another issue with her as well.  In all the years I have been in scouting, I have only had to ask one person to resign.  That was a new Cubmaster that got into a physical argument with a parent that corrected the Cubmaster's son about running around with a stick and poking another scout in the eye with it after he had been asked to put the stick down several times.  I do not and would not ask the DL to resign.  I would try to get the CC, COR and UC involved and try to get the DL to understand that she runs a Den that belongs to a Pack and we are all  big group of families trying to teach the boys something that is becoming lost in the world of TV, computers and gaming.  If that does not work, have the committee sit down and figure it out.  I have read these forums for a while now trying to get ideas and pointers on how maybe to deliver a better program.  Thank you all again for your responses.  Lots to think about.

[SSScout]

Just a thought:    Cub Scouts are "Parent Led"...

Boy Scouts are "Boy Led"...

 

Venture/Explorers are "Boy/Girl Run"....

 

It is "Boy Scouts of America",  not "Parent Scouts of America". 

[Krampus]

Sounds like that DL and her husband are off on their own and not working with their parents.

 

My scout will be the first to say I held him to a higher standard than I did the others in his Den.

 

If the DL and her husband are not doing that, and focusing on their scout's bling, it is time to find another leader IMHO.

[Ranman328]

Update: Did my Den visit last night. Meeting was to start at 6:00pm. Leader showed up at 6:05. Before meeting started two Tigers were pulled in front of entire Den and the Den was asked what was wrong with the scouts? I could see nothing wrong with them. They actually looked very squared away. Uniform on, neckerchief and slide, hat on straight, shirt tucked in. Looked better than some Webelos I have. She proceeds to tell them they have their neckerchief on wrong. These two had their neckerchief on outside their collar instead of under it which is perfectly fine and I am not sure why she did this to them in front of the entire den of 8 boys. Then she did a group knot exercise where everyone holds hands and tries to get untangled. This led into the 20 minutes of looking at abstract art puzzles. They finished by getting in a circle holding hands saying some chant I could not make out. No closing flag ceremony or anything like that. No meeting agenda for parents, no discussion with parents. I pass my notes to my Committee Chairman tonight at our Blue and Gold Committee meeting which the Dl did not attend or respond to the email asking if she would be there. It just so happens that our Committee Chairman is also a Girl Scout Leader. She reads my notes and says, you know these two things (group knot and circle thing at end of meeting) are what Girl Scouts do at every meeting. That is how Girl Scouts end their meetings. How stupid did I feel. Now I have a Tiger Den doing the Girl Scout program. Also found out that the Tiger Den leader will not be able to be at most of our Blue and Gold Banquet that wal scheduled in June 2015 because she wants to attend some all day movie viewing event. I had asked that all Den Leaders be on the Committee and we were going to do a Leader Skit for the Pack. Now the leader won't be there for that or the awards portion of the event (will miss her den receiving their bobcat and Tiger Badges). Very Sad for the parents and scouts of that den. Great Advice Gumbymaster, I think that is what I will do. Glad I posted here as I think it will help me, one stay grounded and two, stay in scouting when my son bridges in 14 months.