Den Leader Issue

[Ranman328]

I need some advice. I am the Cubmaster of our Pack. I have served as a Den Leader, Pack Trainer and Committee Chairman. I have a Tiger Den Leader that has become a thorn in the Pack's side. Very nice lady. Her husband has been a Den Leader for three years and she wanted to get involved as well. She started out as his assistant and then moved to Pack Treasurer. This year they have a son that was starting as a Tiger and she wanted her husband to take the Tiget Position. I agreed as he was already a leader, what could go wrong. Well little did I know, she really wanted to be the leader. She was apparently running things and nobody knew. I noticed none of their meetings or outings were on our Youthmanage web page and inquired. That is when the problems started. Our District and Pack requires a Tour Permit be completed for all outings. These were not being done by the Tiger Den and they had taken several outings. I reminded them of the requirement and they needed to have it to our Committee Chair for signature. I was told that she was very busy and did not have time to fill them out. Then she planned an outing the same day and time as our Scouting for Food Drop bag Drop off. They ended up not participating and went on their outing. A hike in the rain and to visit a museum that ended up being closed. All my correspondence to her were copied to the ACM and CC. We finally had a meeting with her to discuss her role with the Pack. She started off by saying she did not have time to fill out my frivolous paperwork and she didn't understand why she needed to wear the uniform. She admitted that she was at the District Meeting when they said they wanted Tour Permits completed for all outings. After a long discussion, she agreed to take the Den "officially" and would abide by the Pack and BSA rules Policiesand wear the uniform. Now we find out she claims that the Tiger Den has completed the new Tiger Program in four months. When questioned about meetings not on the calendar she has outright lied, does not respond to emails or texts. She claims she doesn't check email for several days and is too busy to go to committee meetings or participate Pack event committees (holiday party, PWD, B&G). Sorry this is so long but in my 10 years of scouting, I have never experienced this before.

[qwazse]

First, thanks for your service and welcome to the forums.

Second, I hate paperwork and a tour premit for every little Tiger half-day outing does sound ridiculous.

That said, if it's the hoop you all have to jump through then you need to find parents willing to jump through it.

 

Your CC and COR need to decide if this leader is delivering the program that the intended, and if not they need to talk to the other Tiger parents and see if there is anyone else willing to do a better job.

[Stosh]

Welcome to the forum, it's unfortunate your first post has to be to help with a problem, but that's what the forum is for.

 

I don't understand all the paperwork thing either.  Our council only requires tour permits when the unit leaves the council.  As long as everyone has backup information in case of an emergency, it is a good to go for the activity.  As far as the uniform is concerned, it is not required for either youth or adult in the program.  Again this sounds like another council rule that doesn't track with national policy.

 

I for one feel that if the parents are happy and the boys are happy with this leader, leave well enough alone.  My boys have "skipped" council events for whatever reason and because none of the three district camporees coming up this spring sound interesting to the boys, they won't be attending any of them.  They will be doing their own thing instead. 

 

As long as this den leader is not endangering the welfare of any of the kids, parents are all going as their buddies, the BSA program is being delivered, etc. just leave well enough alone.  If one is really concerned, go along and find out first hand what's going on with the den.  If everything is kosher, then discuss among the den parents if any of them could help out with the paperwork.  I can understand why someone would not be doing time-wasting paperwork for the council when they don't have to.  I have paperwork filled out only when absolutely necessary and that's why I have an assistant.

[blw2]

I have a few comments

 

Your den leader sounds a lot like the previous pack leadership in my pack, many of which were still involved with younger sons, really had a "anti BSA policy" attitude.  Partial uniforms at best, blowing off requirements such as BALOO for camping, and so on.  Some of it really drove me nuts, but I have to admit in a few small ways some of it makes sense.  You might say that their bad attitude rubbed off, but I think of it more as looking at things realistically, and determining which things are truly important.

 

To me, the only really big issue in your case, is the thought that the requirements might have been pencil whipped.  That was the thing that most drove me nuts through cubs, and where I feel the boys are most cheated.  It's also one of the most difficult things to really address.  Pencil whipping was probably my biggest pet peeve, and one that I was never able to successfully eliminate.  since so much of it falls on the parents to certify that it was done and that he did his best.  You kinda have to take their word for it.  

 

but

remember, this is cubs.  I think holding regular fairly frequent meetings and more than that is having FUN as long as it's all in keeping of the scout oath and law, are way more important that following every letter of the requirements.  If the boys aren't having fun they will want to drop, and we'll lose the opportunity to build character, give citizenship training, or give them good adult association through scouting.

 

With cub scouts, it's not nearly as important to track completing requirements and such as it is in Boy Scouts.  It teaches work ethic and good habits of course, and there are great lessons built in for the boys.  For cubs it's gotta be more about the fun kind of learning.

 

Regarding the tour permits.  My council, at least the last time I looked only required them when not going to a council event.  When I first started as ACM and then CM, I like you was really trying to follow the letter of the law.  I gave good effort to filling out these things, but very quickly I saw the stupidity in that.  The form asks for licence plates of every car, and so on....

At least for us, EVERY event was a family oriented thing and a parent was supposed to be along with the scout.  Usually the scout is riding with their parent anyway.

It's not like Scouts where a couple of adults are loading up a bunch of non-family member scouts and driving them sometimes great distances.  That really seems to be the intended focus of those permits.

 

So I would say that if you have bunches of folks lined up to take her place, then yeah... you should make more of an effort to follow the program in the way that YOU want to do it. Otherwise, like stosh and others said if the boys are happy and the parents are happy, then step back and remember this is only cub scouts.

[Krampus]

I'm interested in why District requires a tour plan if travel is within Council. Part of the reason for the revised tour plan several years back was to REDUCE the administrative burden on packs. The insurance covers you anywhere in council and does not require a tour plan, as long as the activity follows BSA guidelines and the age appropriate matrix.

 

If I were pack chairman I would be asking District why they are making life so hard.

[TAHAWK]

If you agree to take the job, you agree to follow the rules.

 

The tour permit issue is minor compared to the other issues in the OP.

 

Is she "sharing" her disdain for the rules and the pack leadership with the Cubs?

 

It is a matter of judgment whether "one last chance" is extended.

[Stosh]

If every adult leader were expected to follow all the rules to a T, then about 99% of them would be out on their collective ears.

 

There's no indication this woman is taking this issue any further than the paperwork rules and I know of a lot of leaders who don't have uniforms at all.  Still the program moves along and boys have fun.  As far as pencil whipping goes, I don't know of many units that audit what gets marked off in boys' books on the cub scout level.  A bit more stringent when the boys get to Boy Scouts because of the Eagle thingy.

 

On the other hand I have I have seen where councils and districts are a bit too heavy handed as well.  Unless we know the full story, it's hard to judge one way or the other.  After all last time I checked everyone is innocent until proven guilty... maybe it's been changed in other parts of the country than where I'm at.

[TAHAWK]

Stosh, please read the OP again.

 

And of course we don't have the "whole story."  We can only react to what we are told, not as a court to determine guilt or innocence but to give the OP advice as best we can.

[Stosh]

I re-read it twice before I answered the last time.  When peoples' answers differ than mine, I always go back and re-read to see if I can figure out what they might be seeing what I may have missed.  Read it through for the 4th time.... my answer still stands.

[Eagledad]

I also question the uniform, it is a safety issue with us. When the scouts are in a public area, the uniform identifies the adults responsible for the scouts. They don't have to wear a full uniform, but they need enough to be obvious they are with the scout group.

 

 

Barry

Edited February 1, 2016 by Eagledad

[Krampus]

Remind her that no one is saying she needs to dress like these ladies below, be at least the shirt would help!!!

[TAHAWK]

"She was apparently running things and nobody knew. I noticed none of their meetings or outings were on our Youthmanage web page ...."   So she was operating off the Pack calendar.  

 

"Then she planned an outing the same day and time as our Scouting for Food Drop bag Drop off. They ended up not participating and went on their outing."  So she is indifferent to the pack plans and cooperating to give service.

 

"he didn't understand why she needed to wear the uniform."  So she does not agree with, and will not comply with, fundamental Scouting methods.

 

"When questioned about meetings not on the calendar she has outright lied,"

 

"[she]...does not respond to emails or texts."  Impolite and, again, uncooperative.  A law unto herself.

 

"[she] is too busy to go to committee meetings or participate Pack event committee...."  Not a team player or, at best, not enough time to do the job.

 

 

Addition by subtraction.

[blw2]

"She was apparently running things and nobody knew. I noticed none of their meetings or outings were on our Youthmanage web page ...."   So she was operating off the Pack calendar.  

 

"Then she planned an outing the same day and time as our Scouting for Food Drop bag Drop off. They ended up not participating and went on their outing."  So she is indifferent to the pack plans and cooperating to give service.

 

"he didn't understand why she needed to wear the uniform."  So she does not agree with, and will not comply with, fundamental Scouting methods.

 

"When questioned about meetings not on the calendar she has outright lied,"

 

"[she]...does not respond to emails or texts."  Impolite and, again, uncooperative.  A law unto herself.

 

"[she] is too busy to go to committee meetings or participate Pack event committee...."  Not a team player or, at best, not enough time to do the job.

 

 

Addition by subtraction.

 

yeah, you know I don't disagree with where you are going with that at all!...

and in a perfect world I'd be right in there suggesting she be replaced (of course based only on what we know here)

 

My story again as a parallel.....

My pack's DL's did a lot of these things....

   partial or no uniforms

   not participating in the pack's calendar

   infrequent committee attendance at best

   in some cases probably not the most ideal adult role models

   etc...

But if there aren't other den leader candidates waiting in the wings to take it, it might be better to work with the people you've got

OF Course as long as YPT guidelines, general safety, and so on aren't violated AND if things are in keeping with the scout oath and law, and the boys are having fun and learning.... and if the parents are generally happy.

 

Otherwise, what's the alternative?  Close the den and tell the boys to not come back?

 

Going back to the concern I had when my son was troop shopping that there just were absolutely NO perfectly run boy lead patrol method troops in this area, and so he was going to miss out on EVERYTHING that scouting can bring for him.

I eventually came to realize that BP was correct when he wrote something to the effect of this

"All boys can get something out of scouting, as long as the SM does no harm."

So, one might argue that this leader is doing harm because she's depriving the boys of the full good that can be had

but on the other hand

if the boys are getting some good out of the experience, isn't that at least a partial win?

[mashmaster]

I would not worry so much about the paperwork part.  The fact that they are cheating the boys out of a mountain top experience is troubling but difficult to retroactively change.  The Cubmaster could and should den leader meetings to discuss what they are doing.  Maybe highly suggest that she attend the district roundtable meetings, maybe she will get on board for delivering the mountain top experience.

[Stosh]

Mountain top experience?  I'd settle for a fun experience that the boys are interested  and are having fun.  I'm thinking the DL is doing just that and doesn't need the hassle from the Pack.

 

These are Tigers for heaven's sake.  We aren't talking Eagle candidates here.

 

Here's my solution: jerk her registration, her husband will follow as will their son.  That should leave the door wide open for anyone to step up and take over doing it right.  End of discussion.  No one is stepping up?  Well, that's the chance one takes.

 

As far as uniforms are concerned?  Again, remember these are TIGERS, they should be with their parent partner.  You lose a kid, you lose a parent.  If that happens, you got more serious problems than uniforms going on here.