Introduction to the Patrol Method in less than a day

[TAHAWK]

Stosh, and everybody, how about: "led by the leader they select as they carry out Scouting program that they collectively plan for their patrol"  ?

 

I keep worrying about how to explain this all more clearly..  But I cannot say I have hit any great resistance in teaching the Patrol Method at three Baden-Powell Institutes and two Universities of Scouting.

 

I want to convince, not merely appeal to authority.

 

Concrete examples help.  There is a questionnaire floating around.  It asks questions such as:

 

>You are the Scoutmaster.  You see that the Fox Patrol has several members with their hands in their pockets at Opening Ceremony.  What, if anything, do you say, to whom, and under what circumstances?  Discuss.

 

>You are the Scoutmaster.  A Scout comes up to you and asks when the campfire will start.   What, if anything, do you say, to whom, and under what circumstances?  Discuss.

 

The analogy to Little League Baseball works.   Everyone "sees" the insanity of: "I had to pitch.  None of the boys could find the plate."

 

 

When?  Not when perfection.  When Patrol Method?  Anyone expecting instant perfection is probably in the wrong job - or species.  Become an ant.

 

It's not the quality of the decision, it's that the Scouts make the decisions.  We have troops that for years have had the "goal" of being "youth-led" (as if that was all there is to  the Patrol Method/Boy Scouting).  They keep waiting for something - the Voice of God - the "perfect time" - the right "culture" (Scouting, January 2015) - the "right" boys.   The problem is the adults.

 

Assuming that you know even approximately what it is, do it.  Find out all you can and refine your technique.  An imperfect effort is superior to the troop-method, adult-led, non-Boy Scouting whatever is being allowed to be the pattern.

Edited January 26, 2016 by TAHAWK

[Stosh]

I'm totally on board with what TAHAWK said.

[Eagledad]

I'm not exactly sure what TAHAWK said, but I too have taught patrol method with some acceptance of the idea. Enough so that I was brought on board the Council training committee to encourage patrol method through JLT courses. But I have also work with units to develop the program and it isn't as easy of going cold turkey overnight. So I ask TAHAWK, have you actually switched a patrol overnight successfully? If so, I have questions.

 

Barry 

[Eagledad]

 

​Without a unity of vision from the adults, the patrol method cannot work. All the adult's must be on the same page and have a point person, it should be the Scoutmaster, but an ASM can make it work. (I had to steer the ship from the ASM position till the Scoutmaster figured things out.)

 

In a Troop where the older Scouts aren't playing the game, this could easily turn into a 3-4 year process where you have to build the patrol system with  younger Scouts, wait for the older guys who don't want to go along to age/Eagle/drop out. That's a tough proposition.

 

 I think the more realistic scenario is some of the older scouts don't buy in, some do. Target the ones that do, build them up and coach them, especially if they are patrol leaders or the SPL. 

 

​I'd keep going, but I'd like commentary before I continue to ramble about my experiences. Perhaps a little commentary can help me focus on the specifics.

 

Sentinel947

Those two bolded points show me that Sentinel has the experience and knows what he is talking about because they are both consistent with all the programs I observed or guided to boy run and patrol method.

 

Getting all the adults on board in a troop that was not so much patrol method is a huge challenge because while the theory sounds great, old habits are hard to break and there is always the little question of it the gain is worth the pain. Once the troop is a patrol method program, then it's not so hard to bring new adults on board and train them.

 

The older scouts are always the hard part. They are so challenging that I tell adults up front they need to weed out the resisting older scouts and let them do their own thing. They will hang around long enough to get what they want from the program and move on. At first this bothers the adults because they want everyone on board, but they eventually figure out that longer they try to get these guys to change, the longer it will take to change the whole troop. I have never seen a program switch over where the 13 and older scouts bought in 100 percent. So I think it is fair to talk about the typical road blocks of going to boy run to prepare the adults for the challenges. 

 

Barry

[TAHAWK]

Can I ask why is it relevant at all whether turning an adult-run troop-method troop into a Boy Scout troop can be done overnight?   Is it as as relevant as whether the boys will suddenly become miniature experienced adults and run the "well-oiled machine."?

 

Of course it's hard.  Even simple things are often hard - especially with things to "unlearn."   But waiting to start in the right direction does not seem to work at all.  We have troops here that have been waiting for the right set of conditions for twenty years.

 

And while we are waiting, boys are missing out on the experiences that Scouting says helps make them better people and better citizens - things like experiencing democracy and being given responsibility.

 

One could forget that the boys are expected to perform to "a boy's standard," not the standard of experienced adults.

 

 

I became SM of a troop that was about dead.  I had been out of Scouting or in Cubbing for eighteen years.  I had no idea (at that point) about what had gone on in the 1970s or that the Patrol Method was no longer required or even strongly promoted.  I could not miss "Skill Awards," but thought that was a detail.  In my ignorance, I gave a brief talk to twenty-one Scouts about what would be happening in terms of planning and leadership, we had elections, and off we went.  The ride was bumpy at times, but the troop was a Boy Scout troop.  As the years went on, troop membership rose to forty-seven, and I attended Scout Roundtable sessions, I came to find that the majority of troops did not even allow elections for PLs, much less SPL.  I heard about "lazy" Scouts, and "electing the wrong one."  I was told it was "unfair too expect too much" and there was "no time for patrol meetings,."  (The leading spokesman for abandoning Boy Scouting obtained his Silver Buffalo a couple years ago.)  I noticed what had happened to BSA literature.

 

When our CO decided its new Youth Ministry conflicted with Scouting, the troop went out-of-charter for the eleventh time in its history, and we combined with the neighboring troop.   The SM of that troop was much-celebrated and very senior, so I volunteered up front that he should remain SM.  That was lovely with him.  I quickly discovered that the very senior SM talked Patrol Method but in reality made all the decisions (even for the other adults).  Two frustrating months in, he made a tactical error by sending the SPL and two PLs to JLT (the NYLT of the day).  They returned, unhappy, and organized all the leaders to walk away. I  and the other SA talked the leaders out of quitting, but the SM caught wind of the unrest and left in a huff.  I and the other SA flipped, he became SM, the troop has been Patrol Method ever since.  

 

Due to age, winter driving conditions, and distance after a move, I joined a third troop only ten minutes away, although forewarned about the one-man-band SM.  I foolishly thought I could make a difference.  I should have left when the PLs the first night could not tell me what patrol they belonged to.  Again, the T of O of the troop was a single vertical line with one box.  The SM even attends, and runs, the Troop Committee meetings. (official "Scoutmaster of the Year" for 2011)

 

I left that troop and am with a troop whose new SM tries to run a Patrol Method troop.  He really does.  He finds it hard to stay back ("George!  Hands out of pockets!") .  He is too attracted to advancement as a program driver  - but is strong on actually earning.  They have enhanced program to keep older Scouts interested and so have a range of ages all the way to High School Seniors.  All-in-all, It is so much better than the last gig that I am sure I'll stay.   The troop seems to rotate SMs every few years, so there is a pronounced upside in a not-too-bad situation.

[qwazse]

SM asked me last night about MB classes during the meeting ... mainly because at roundtable a seasoned SM did a presentation on how their trooped acquired MBCs and ran all of their counseling for every required badge in-house. Meetings were mainly merit badge classes.

 

I gave him my low opinion of such a strategy. (Yes, ask the PLC if they'd like to call someone to present on an MB they'd like to learn more about. No, don't expect them to work on it and earn it during meetings.  Especially when most of the boys are still working towards 1st Class, and, the older boys -- although cliquish -- are still coming to meetings without us serving up busy-work for them.) I think he was relieved that I saw no need to "keep up with the Joneses."

 

With overt pressure to squander boys' leadership opportunities (taking your own initiative in your own rank advancement being a form of self-leadership), it's no wonder that troops feel pressured to set aside or give lip service to the patrol method.

[Eagledad]

Can I ask why is it relevant at all whether turning an adult-run troop-method troop into a Boy Scout troop can be done overnight?   Is it as as relevant as whether the boys will suddenly become miniature experienced adults and run the "well-oiled machine."?

 

 

Because I think some folks were trying to have a discussion of how to teach or convince others to switch to Patrol Method and it seemed like you didn't like the discussion. I'm sure it's just me, but I really wasn't sure what you were trying to say. Well-oiled machine, GREAT! I like the vision.

 

I'm good to go.

 

Barry

[Stosh]

I guess I need to get my head around some of the issues here.

 

From my experience, the well oiled machines are out there, but they are by no means boy-led but may or may not make a cosmetic attempt at the patrol method.  They have a strong adult vision as to what the program is all about, have the 12 outings a year, high adventure every year rotating between Philmont, Sea Base, and BWCA.  Summer camp is seldom in the council camp, it is well known how disappointing it is if the troop doesn't bring in a half dozen ribbons for the troop flag at camporee, everyone in the council knows how many Eagles this troop has produced, the SM and 2 ASM's are Silver Beaver, etc. etc. etc ad nauseum.

 

This is not an amalgamation of a number of troops from my past experiences, it is the troop I served as an ASM.  I didn't even go into detail about the troop trailer that served as a troop kitchen.  It was the envy of all other troops.

 

What else is not mentioned is the fact that they took on 20-25 new Webelos boys every year and lost that number throughout the year.  They remained stagnant in average membership at about 30 boys, the number the SM and 7 ASM's could accommodate.

 

It was this troop I as a lone ASM attempted to work on my boy-led, patrol-method skills, getting nowhere of course.

 

The problem with this was the total myopia of those involved.  No one saw any of this as a problem.  Everyone in the council spoke of this troop as the troop to emulate. 

 

On the other hand anyone who was capable of understanding beyond the box saw differently and being one of those, I had to leave the troop.  I went into direct "competition" with the troop by becoming a SM in the same neighborhood as them.  I had 5 boys and a long road ahead of me.  I had to endure the competitive hassling of the other troop constantly.  They even went to the council about me stealing boys from the troop when I picked up a few of the boys that dropped out of the troop on a regular basis.  I knew how they operated and gleaned those disillusioned boys into my troop.  In 3 years I had a troop the size of them, but I ran boy-led, patrol-method and for the tradition of the area, that didn't set well with adults who constantly compared us to the other "powerhouse" unit in town.

 

So not only do the adult scouters prefer a well-oiled troop, the parents of the kids do as well, and the expectation of the community follows that precept as well and with all the accolades from district and council level scouters chiming in, boy-led, patrol-method in our area has to fight more than a troop level battle.

 

We do have another unit in our council that makes an effort to be boy-led, but according to many of those who now finally have joined with me in the past couple of years indicate it's not as boy-led as they think they are.  This comes form the Unit Commissioner who has a grandson in that troop.

 

I do have a DE that backs me up.  I took on the job of starting a new unit in an area of town at her request, smack dab in the middle of the council to take on as a boy-led, patrol-method program.  I'm fighting an uphill battle.  We had an Eagle from a nearby troop which is known for it's Eagle Mill program, hold his ECOH in our CO's facilities of which the boy is a member.  Our recruiting efforts have produced more boys for other units in the area than our own because powerhouse units offer more opportunities with less youth effort than a boy-led, patrol-method program.

 

So before one sets out on their "vision" for the boys, make sure to take a panoramic view of things before one commit a ton of energy and the eventual burnout from the struggle.  I don't have the traditions, the ensconced committee members, the parents who constantly remind you that it's never been done that way before, and the past record to simply recopy for next year's program.  Couple that with other troops nearby recruiting from the packs with high powered programs, and even stealing them away from the boy-led program because the boys are showing strong leadership from a young age and are welcomed new members to the other troops who struggle with youth leadership issues.  I could cut my concerns by 2/3rds if all I had to worry about was boy-led, patrol-method in the troop alone.

 

I don't think introducing the Patrol Method in less than a day would work around here, I don't think they could get enough people to take the class to meet the 6-8 member patrol size to experience the process. 

[gumbymaster]

@@gumbymaster that sounds like a great idea (if someone would volunteer the tech to support it)!

• That answers how we get 1000 scouters/parents in the audience.
• Rather than a single day session, this operates (from the audience's perspective) over several sessions per month. I think that gives users a chance to get comfortable and experience the reality that real patrols take time to come together.
• The simulation should end after a month or two. This also simulates a scout's tenure.
• The time online and with whom (your patrol vs. your PLC) should be managed. This simulates a scout's availability for meetings.
• I could see "infinite room" being managed by only allowing you to choose patrol mates from among the nearest 40 people who start the course about the same time you do. (I.e., every 40 registrants is in a troop.)
• The downside is being sure your virtual patrol mates are committed. However, that's the risk that every scout faces as he joins his patrol.
• The challenges would have to be virtual, but may involve something like uploaded taking pictures of your gear (a la tenderfoot requirements) or the results of a service project.
• Here's a kicker: maybe a patrol's results should be judged by scouts taking NYLT! They get to up-vote patrols they admire.

The closing lessons for each patrol would involve after action review, and how much they'd like to see something like this for their boys in real space.

 

@@qwazse, I like the additions; it would be fun to do, but a major undertaking.  One of the hardest parts is keeping the challenges interesting and doable-online.  I like the gear photo upload as an example, I also like the closed time frame for participation.

Edited January 27, 2016 by gumbymaster

[Sentinel947]

I think another aspect of this training is to control the jargon. Thanks to @@Stosh , @@Eagledad and @@Krampus, I've realized that we are often talking past each other when we talk about things like New Scout Patrol, or Mixed age versus Same Age patrols. We all agree on the Patrol method, but it's the messy details that things become very confusing, even for a quartet of experienced Scouters. If we're having such a messy time with this, what does that mean for new leaders? 

Unless the BSA defines very specific definitions for terms like those. (which they won't) Any trainer or commentator here has to be very specific about what those terms mean. 

Sentinel947 

[Stosh]

Good observation Sentinel.  Maybe this is why sometimes I felt like some on the forum when they "countered" my comments did so with exactly what I thought I just said. 

 

So I do like the one comment someone made, my apologies, with all the patrol threads, it's hard to keep track, that said a NSP is a 6 month temporary patrol with a TG that helps the new guys get oriented and then assimilated into other patrols.  The TG is optional because it's run by an adult ASM anyway.  There's not much reason to really train the new PL because once he's into another patrol, it'll probably be a while before he gets to be PL again.  He can learn for real then.

 

My NSP's are just that new, Scout patrols.  In order not to disrupt the functionality of any existing patrols by dumping a bunch of new guys in that need to get up to speed in 12-18 months of skills training, a brand new patrol is created.  It's a new permanent patrol.  As boys come and go as with any other patrol, it might need to take on new members on occasion and/or merge with another patrol to maintain the 6-8 member parameters. 

 

The OSP's  (Older Scout Patrols ) can then plan their more challenging activities instead of spending time training the new guys who they have to leave behind when they go on HA anyway.  Just doesn't seem to be an efficient use of patrol time and effort.  Seniors in high school have no interest in working with 6th graders and 6th graders have no interest in what high school seniors are interested in (which in some cases might be a really good thing.)

 

I guess my preferences on patrol selection when I talk about them are a reflection of what my boys in my area are doing at the present time.  As I have said before, I have no part in patrol member selection, patrol leadership selection or even patrol activity planning. 

 

If perchance I get a ton of new Webelos boys this spring, it is my intention of taking all the boys, dumping them in a room and having them group up 6-8 boys and come out with at least 1 leader for each group.  Are they going to put much thought in it?  Nope, I'm gonna want to be with my buddy.  That's it.  Who wants to be the leader?  Okay, Joe said yes, we can get outta this room now.  6 months from now?  a year from now?  Will these patrols be the same?  Maybe, I don't care, it's up to the boys, they'll tell me if there are any changes.

[TAHAWK]

Because I think some folks were trying to have a discussion of how to teach or convince others to switch to Patrol Method and it seemed like you didn't like the discussion. I'm sure it's just me, but I really wasn't sure what you were trying to say. Well-oiled machine, GREAT! I like the vision.

 

I'm good to go.

 

Barry

As has been noted here several times by several posters, the need for a troop to run like a "well-oiled machine" is often the rationalization for adults running troops and patrols - a rationalization presented in Scouting in January, 2015 (Scouts were not "ready" for leadership in this years-old troop.)

 

If we accept that it is the journey and not the end product, there is no great rush.

 

If one did not like discussions, this would be a strange place to frequent.

[gumbymaster]

When I was a boy ...

 

[OldManRambling]

 

Whenever there was more than a Scout or two joining, the existing patrols has a form of draft to select who they wanted as a part of their group.

 

If it was just one or two Scouts, they usually got to choose from the least populated patrols.

 

Every six months, just after the troop selection of the SPL and his appointment of his Senior Patrol/Leadership Corp members (2 ASPLs, Scribe, Troop QM, maybe one of two others with various functions), the Scouts that wanted to, applied to transfer patrols - join with friends, increase liklihood of being elected PL, fill in for lack of older leadership drafted to the Senior Patrol, if the patrol had room then the transfer was generally approved.

 

The patrols then selected their own leadership for the next six months.

 

Generally speaking, this system worked pretty well, most of our patrols had a good age distribution, and relatively even skills distribution.

 

The system predated me, and predated the troop adult leaders around that time, so I do not know if the original tradition was set up by the youth or adults, but the troop itself, in my time, was very boy led and organized.

 

Our summer camp also had a pretty good First Year camper program (if I do say so myself).

 

I, for sake of this argument, leave out the negative consequences in esteem for last scouts drafted.

 

[/OldManRambling]

 

I have seen units where the NSP (bridged Webelos stay together for 6 mos to a year with an active Troop Guide and/or ASM) worked pretty well - but usually they were distributed out to other patrols after that time.

 

The problem, as I have also seen it, is if the patrols are not aged mixed and if the troop (youth) leadership is not really strong, is that the adults use this as an excuse to step in a teach the boys - and while that works (usually) for teaching those scouts the skills they need to learn, it also denies an opportunity for the slightly older (12, 13, 14 year old) scouts to learn how to teach, and gain the confidence from seeing the success in their teaching.

 

If the Scouts are kept together the whole time, while it does improve patrol spirit and comradere, it also sets up a problem in the future when you have several older (14-15 year old, 1-St-L) scouts competing for leadership positions within the patrol when they were not selected for a troop level POR.  Adult leaders, often step in here and either expand the roster of PORs (i.e. bugler, librarian, etc.) without actually establishing how that position becomes one of leadership and responsibility (they can be, but it requires effort and clear expectations), and the boys get credit for marking time without really learning the skills we (as adult leaders) want to instil in the Scouts.

 

I know it can be done (a working NSP model), I have seen it; but the level of effort (and restraint) required is beyond what most Troops I have observed are able to accomplish.

[Stosh]

I'm hearing concerns about patrol methods and POR conflicts.  There are election cycles and such that play another dynamic in the process.

 

Let's just a total free-for-all for the moment.

 

28 boys in the program SPL, ASPL, QM and Scribe make up the Leadership Council.  That leaves 24 boys for the three 8 boy patrols. 

 

4 new Webelos boys show up at the front door.

 

Well Johnny in Patrol 1 says he needs a POR for Star, but he has been a PL in the past, but that was before he got FC.  So he says to his buddy, come with me and I'll offer my services to the new scouts to be their TG and you can offer up being their APL.

 

So the new boys say, "I guess so, because they don't know any better."  The first thing the new boys want to do is select a PL.  They ask why can't the TG or APL guy do it.  And the two say, it's important that one of the new guys learns how to be a PL and the TG and APL are going to help him learn.

 

They're a little light on new boys, but they do have 6 boys working together now getting things up and running.  The only "disruption" in the troop is one patrol is now down 2 boys who went off to work on POR.

 

Okay now another 4 Webelos boys come knocking.  They're too big to assimilate into the new patrol, so 2 more boys leave a second older patrol and set up the patrol.

 

1) All the Webelos boys get to stay together in their own little groups

2) 2 older boys get their POR's as TG's

3) 2 new patrols to the troop expanding the number of troop officers, more boys in the PLC

4) Only the membership of two older patrols was affected and not enough to drop below 6 members.

5) No one was forced to move by an adult, all moves were motivated by boys choosing to seek POR positions in the new patrols.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Stosh

[blw2]

 

 

I, for sake of this argument, leave out the negative consequences in esteem for last scouts drafted.

 

 

why I think it would make sense for the PL's to do the draft at the PLC, not in front of the scouts

 

(just an old adult rambling here....)