Adult Association Method

[Eagledad]

 

 

Perpetual coaching, mentoring and guiding just might be this micromanaging you are talking about blw2.....  Something to think on anyway.  I wonder if there is such a thing as a helicopter SM.    Naw that could never happen. 

Mentoring, guiding and coaching are discussed in several BSA training syllabuses and user handbooks. I've haven't seen "perpetual" used anywhere accept in stoshes scary tells. I wonder if there is such a thing as helicopter straw men.

 

Barry

[TAHAWK]

Green Bar Bill said it best.  TRAIN 'EM, TRUST 'EM, LET THEM LEAD.  I have no problem with training them, but most interfering adults feel that's an ongoing process and never get to step two.  It also plays into the abuse of adult management being promoted by BSA today now that they have totally dumped GBB from the pages of BSA history.  

Stosh, that is not all that he said.  He wrote entire books,  

 

Respectfully, your understanding is different than Bills, or BP's, or anyone else I have ever encountered in 45 years of registered Scouting.

 

That some go too far is no good reason for everyone to do too little.  

 

Scouting is expressly an educational movement.

[blw2]

that cub scouting connection to this is interesting to me, having only recently worked as cubmaster (and many other roles in the pack) and now really studying in depth the roles of a troop's scouter.

You mention that its a very different role.  Yes.... but as I'm thinking about it now, with the benefit of hindsight, I think maybe the difference shouldn't be so significant when comparing cubs with troop scouting.

 

I did always feel that I was setting an example for the boys in everything I did.  At least I tried to keep that in mind.  As I think about it now though, I think instead of modeling the role of a do everything manager, i think it might have been a better program for the boys if they had an even bigger role to play.

 

I often did things like trying to have an open dialogue with the boys during the pack meetings.  Asking them about what they have been doing for example.... or asking them for input on which trips we should consider, but honestly I mostly got dear in the headlights stares .... I wonder if maybe they just didn't know how to react.

 

They get so much of this lecturing and being "taught" and talked to in school, but they also get it in spades in cub scouts too.  I'm thinking now, that scouts should be different.  Not just Boy Scouts, but all scouts....

 

maybe the boys might have been better served by my doing things like perhaps

having the older WEBELOS play more of like a SPL role in a troop meeting.

& maybe take the discussion thing even deeper, in letting all of the boys be involved in planning the activities for meetings and trips.... such as for example have a short part of each pack meeting be a round table discussion of sorts to plan the next event or meeting.

I mean

let the boys be involved

model for them actions more like what a SM should be doing.

[Eagledad]

 

maybe the boys might have been better served by my doing things like perhaps

having the older WEBELOS play more of like a SPL role in a troop meeting.

& maybe take the discussion thing even deeper, in letting all of the boys be involved in planning the activities for meetings and trips.... such as for example have a short part of each pack meeting be a round table discussion of sorts to plan the next event or meeting.

I mean

let the boys be involved

model for them actions more like what a SM should be doing.

I'm not sure how you are relating this to the current discussion, but our pack does those things with the cubs for their growth. But like everything in scouting, growth has to be in the confines of maturity, otherwise there is no growth.

 

For example we guide the Tiger leaders to stand as a participant with their scouts in skits. We asked the Wolf leader to stand with the scouts, but not be a participant. The Bear leaders doesn't participate at all, but helps their boys pick out the skits and practice. The 1st year Webelos pick their own skits and practices on their own. The 2nd year Webelos write all their own skits. Each year is a progression of growth based on the maturity of their age group.

 

At the pack meetings, two 2nd year Webelos lead the Flag ceremonies with a younger den actually carrying the flags. Two first year Webelos stand one step behind and to the side of the 2nd year Webelos to learn the responsibility for next year. The two Webelos leading the ceremony arrive to the pack meeting an hour early to teach the cubs in the den carrying the flags what to do. The other Webelos set up the room. During the Pack meeting, the Webelos are assisting the Cub Master. After the meeting the Webelos guide the other cubs and parents of putting all the chairs and tables back in storage.

 

The Webelos write and create all the ceremonies and skits for the final pack campfire in May. They are very ready to stand in front of a troop of strangers the next year to lead the flag ceremony or just plan the patrols part in the next campfire.

 

But it isn't about leadership skills, it's about developing confidence to step into the unknown. The Troop experience is the same. A new scout joins the troop and is asked to be a Cheer Master because that responsibility give the scout practice in communication with his patrol mates, and planning for campfires and COHs at the level of experience for a new scout.  It's a small responsibility intended to develop the confidence for the next responsibility which will require more communication, planning and association with other folks outside the patrol. This goes on and on until the fully matured scout leaves at age 18. It's one big master plan that starts at the Tiger age. 

 

And it works very well.

 

Barry

[MattR]

Maybe I have a different view of this, but when I read adult association I understand it as some form of teaching. In this case the skill is leadership and the style is of a master and apprentice. I don't know of any effective education process that consists of the master telling the apprentice "just watch me and you'll learn." Certainly that's part of it but there's more. The master creates problems the apprentice has to solve. Failure is part of the process. For PhD's and trade schools this is how it's done.

 

I think Stosh's complaint is that the master won't back off enough to let the scouts learn through failure. This is where the so called 300' rule comes into play. It's interesting how some scouts have very different personalities when adults are around. Anyway, as usual, the BSA doesn't explain a method very well.

[Stosh]

I don't see the relationship between SM and scout a master/apprentice one.  The goals I teach on leadership have never been part of a PHD or trade school curriculum.

 

If I am to help a scout into the world of adulthood, he has to experience it, not just be taught it.  He sees how I operate as an adult and all of a sudden he realizes that I am treating him as a peer it catches his attention and he reacts to me differently than he does other adults who are treating him as a child, student, apprentice, or any thing other than a peer.

 

When I say peer, that does not mean I go down to his level, but instead draw him up to the adult level.  There are a number of little things I do to reinforce this, too numerous to mention in a post.

 

When all is said and done the end result tends to be the same.  My one Eagle who called me by my first name when I came into the troop was rather arrogant and self-centered.  After 4 years of working with him, he was always referred by me as Mr. Scout and eventually he started calling me Mr. Stosh  I never told him he had to, he just made the switch.  When he aged out, I started calling him by his first name.  He continued with the Mr. Stosh.  I told him we were now peers and we can call each other by our first names.  He smiled at me and said, We're not peers, we're friends and you will be Mr. Stosh until the day I die."  I was introduced to his new bride when he got married last summer as "This is my special friend, Mr. Stosh.  He helped make me who I am today." 

 

One of my Webelos boys told me on the day of his Eagle COH that other than his dad, no other adult male spent more time helping him grow up than me and then thanked me.

 

How does one teach those dynamics to youth?  Adult association pure and simple.  If one doesn't understand that, they probably never will because they are instilled through association, not instruction.

[Eagledad]

I think Stosh's complaint is that the master won't back off enough to let the scouts learn through failure. 

Most of us have discussed this many times over without distorting reality. My struggle with stosh's messages is that he taints, distorts and corrupts acceptable practices, writings and traditional concepts to force a point. 

 

I joined this forum to help adults develop a quality program and have a fulfilling scouting experience without making the same mistakes I made. Lately it seems the forum struggles to grow membership and it doesn't help when a new freshly trained leader reads that everything they just learned was a waste of time and wrong. This comes from a Unit Commissioner who is supposed to encourage unit adults get trained so they can help their unit move forward. IF stosh doesn't believe training helps, he needs to get out of the UC business and just stick with scoutmastering his five scouts.

 

For us old-timers, the present BSA information isn't the best guidance for a quality program that we experienced in our units. But it is all that today's adults have and if we can't help guide them to develop a quality program from today's information, they will struggle and fail because there is no fall back plan. One mans option of "My way or the highway" is guidance to failure. I know we help adults build good quality programs more like the traditional patrol method because many of us have been doing if for several years. But it takes sensible reasoning and understanding of the objectives to build a quality program starting with todays information. 

 

Growing requires helping one get from "a" to "b"without suggesting that adults who aren't already at "z" are terrible leaders. 

 

Kind of funny, after reading stosh's original post, I remembered long discussions in past years where he went to great lengths explaining the proper techniques for mentoring, guiding and coaching of scouts. Seems this scoutmaster stosh didn't like that scoutmaster stosh.

 

Barry

[blw2]

Well, i for one see Stosh's point.

Maybe I'm missing some subtle underlying points or meanings here, but

The way I look at it, his posts like these are food for thought.... an exercise thinking outside the box and making an effort to help others think about stuff from a different angle.  Not as absolute statements that are all encompassing.

Instead of trying to dissect and analyze every syllable I'm seeing a bigger picture to the comments.  He's right, in that boys observe others, especially adults in positions of authority.

Boys need role models, adult associations other than the parent.  A big brother type, or a cool uncle or cool grandpa to help guide him through some things that a parent just can't

and

a big part of that need has more to do with associating instead of directing.  

Sure a boy needs directing and he gets plenty of that form school and through other avenues.  Even scouting.

But there's another association too that we can consider

[Stosh]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=can%27t+see+the+forest+for+the+trees

[Eagledad]

Well, i for one see Stosh's point.

Maybe I'm missing some subtle underlying points or meanings here, but

The way I look at it, his posts like these are food for thought.... an exercise thinking outside the box and making an effort to help others think about stuff from a different angle.  Not as absolute statements that are all encompassing.

Instead of trying to dissect and analyze every syllable I'm seeing a bigger picture to the comments.  He's right, in that boys observe others, especially adults in positions of authority.

Boys need role models, adult associations other than the parent.  A big brother type, or a cool uncle or cool grandpa to help guide him through some things that a parent just can't

and

a big part of that need has more to do with associating instead of directing.  

Sure a boy needs directing and he gets plenty of that form school and through other avenues.  Even scouting.

But there's another association too that we can consider

You are going to find that everything you just said including the big brother type and so on are discussed in the Scoutmaster essentials course, Scoutmaster Handbook, and Woodbadge, unless they were changed in recent years since I retired. You got to remember, William Hillcourt (GreenBar Bill) was very involved with the developing this program and a lot of his stuff is still used by the BSA.

 

I'm an engineer, my job requires me to think out of the box and I'm quite good at it. thinking out of the box is probably my favorite thing to do. But I'm also pragmatic and there is a difference between pondering around the question or leading the discussion off by calling everything crap with misinformation to support. Stosh isn't saying anything or doing anything in his troop that many of us on the forum haven't said or done ourselves long before stosh become a scoutmaster. Trust me, stosh has nothing new on many of us on the forum and most of everything he says he does is somewhere in BSA publications.

 

The issue for me blw2 is that Stosh keeps saying that BSA program is intentionally leading adults in the wrong direction. I keep asking where he reads this stuff and he can't answer because it isn't there. But you without the training and the handbook believe him, so you go off repeating his misinformation which doesn't help those other new adults who are looking for a base of information to develop their program. So you can understand why I think his post are counter productive.

 

Where the BSA has gone wrong is that the publications don't get into the details like they used to, especially in patrol method. But neither does stosh, his explination is to suggest that anybody who doesn't do it his way are bad leaders. That isn't productive either. 

 

Imagine how much more influential stosh would be if he didn't even mention his opinion of the BSA or the leadership styles of others. Then we get the good stuff without of the smoke and mirrors in the middle. And if you think I'm just picking on stosh, for whatever reason, I held many scouters here accountable to what I think is unscoutlike behavior. I don't know why, I just find it disgusting and I believe it drives people away.

 

Barry

[qwazse]

Not to split hairs ... But I'm picking up a bit of a false dichotomy.

I don't see the relationship between SM and scout a master/apprentice one.  ...

 

Master (not mentor) goes with apprentice.

Mentor goes with mentee (not apprentice)

 

Perhaps part of the way adult association goes off the rails is that it gets conflated with all possible hierarchies when only a few are intended.

[Stosh]

@@qwazse  I think you are close on this issue.

 

Perhaps the multiple references among the various dictionaries on the Internet aren't quite precise as need be, but the relationship dynamic I was trying to get across was the difference between:

 

1) Mentor dynamic which is connected with words like advisor, guide, guru, consultant, trainer, tutor, coach, etc.  It is most often used in the context of a older superior to a younger subordinate, but could be used in a teacher/learner or master/apprentice where age might not be a factor.  But you are correct on the hierarchy emphasis where the relationship is never equal.

 

2) Associate on the other hand has the dynamic which is connected with words like partner, colleague, coworker, workmate, comrade, ally, affiliate, confederate, etc. a more equal partner relationship dynamic.

 

I suppose my BSA heresy is based on the fact that BSA uses the word adult association when describing the method by which the relationship between SM and Scout is more an equal peer than a higher/lower mentor/mentee type of relationship which seems to be the prevailing trend in current BSA literature.  Maybe the dynamic changed but the historical wording didn't.

 

My point being, in my heresy, I have found I get a lot more mileage out of my boys when I associate with them rather than mentor them.  Yes, on occasion a coworker might seek out another coworker for counsel or advice, but the basic relationship is one of equality because tomorrow, the advice seeking might in fact be reversed.  This happens all the time in my troops.

 

If my role is defined as mentor, guide, etc. I might find getting advice on something a bit more more contrived when seeking it from a mentee.  This is where the "What do you want to do for an activity this next month?" and the traditional answer from the less experienced, mentee is an emphatic, "I dunno!"  Sure, I get that from some of the younger boys, but my older boys tend to be more relaxed, more confident and cowork "with" me rather than "for" me.

 

Viewing scouts in a peer relationship is not an easy task.  It requires a lot of trust and it is often hard for adults to do that with those they determine are just "children".  I just work really hard at not seeing them as children and instead place an expectation on them as well as myself to treat/view them as adults, the thing they want most during these adolescent years.  Not only do they appreciate it, they tend to be more cooperative and responsive to each other and myself if they see the relationship as "everyone is equal and in the same boat."  One can meet the boys at this level without becoming immature and being "one of them", but draw out the developing adult in them and acknowledge their stepping up to the adult level.

 

To me this is how the Adult Association Method works for me.  And for those who think I'm preaching BSA heresy and my own brand of scouting, I'm presenting the disclaimer: "YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY" because not everyone can wrap their mind around the dynamic differences here and there are a lot of scouters out there that really don't trust their boys.  After all it's very difficult to do.  Train 'em, trust 'em, let them lead.  I didn't make that up on my own.

[KenD500]

Part of adult association -  the example we set.  The Scouts observe us constantly.  Are we "walking the talk"?  Do we do our best to follow the Scout Oath & Law, or are they just words to be said?  How do we interact with other adults?  How do we resolve conflict or a difference of opinions? 

[Stosh]

Exactly!  Some of the best education on leadership is NOT done in a NYLT-like training session, it is done by osmosis watching of the adults interacting with each other.  How else are they going to start acting like an adult unless they have a good standard to emulate.  This of course implies that the boy have mature leaders in the first place.  Otherwise that could be a problem.

[qwazse]

@@qwazse  I think you are close on this issue.

 

Perhaps the multiple references among the various dictionaries on the Internet aren't quite precise as need be, but the relationship dynamic I was trying to get across was the difference between:

 

1) Mentor dynamic which is connected with words like advisor, guide, guru, consultant, trainer, tutor, coach, etc.  It is most often used in the context of a older superior to a younger subordinate, but could be used in a teacher/learner or master/apprentice where age might not be a factor.  But you are correct on the hierarchy emphasis where the relationship is never equal.

 

2) Associate on the other hand has the dynamic which is connected with words like partner, colleague, coworker, workmate, comrade, ally, affiliate, confederate, etc. a more equal partner relationship dynamic.

 

I suppose my BSA heresy is based on the fact that BSA uses the word adult association when describing the method by which the relationship between SM and Scout is more an equal peer than a higher/lower mentor/mentee type of relationship which seems to be the prevailing trend in current BSA literature.  Maybe the dynamic changed but the historical wording didn't....

 

There will always be a hierarchy. It makes precious little difference if the lines from (S)PL to SM on the organizational chart are horizontal are vertical. The question is: what goes on as you follow those lines?

 

I find the Mentor/Mentee relationship has the best image of what should be happening. The youth should realize that you're not their boss. You're just this guy with skills, who knows other caring adults with different skills, who from time to time will throw down a challenge and see if some youth will take it on.

 

I think it used to be that we attracted parents who believed that so much that, if the boy burnt the grilled cheese, we ate it happily. (Well, maybe thanks to a little bottle of Tabasco sauce in my personal kit.) Now, we often attract parents who expect us to never let the boys serve up anything but golden-brown whole wheat toast. This increases the pressure to turn adult association into adult management.

Edited January 21, 2016 by qwazse