Adult Association Method

[Stosh]

Association with Adults

Boys learn a great deal by watching how adults conduct themselves. Scout leaders can be positive role models for the members of their troops. In many cases a Scoutmaster who is willing to listen to boys, encourage them, and take a sincere interest in them can make a profound difference in their lives.  (http://www.nesa.org/methods.html)

 

ADULT ASSOCIATION

Boys learn from the example set by their adult leaders. An association with adults of high character is encouraged at this stage of a young man’s development. (http://www.scouting.org/HispanicInitiatives/Resources/boyscout.aspx)

 

Okay, these are the top two "official" results of the Google search one from NESA.ORG and the other SCOUTING.ORG.  From my reading of both, I can't seem to get my head wrapped around the idea that association with adults has anything to do with the adults able to mentor, direct, guide or otherwise interfere with the other methods of scouting, such as the Patrol Method.

 

Can anyone give me indication where this concept of adult control, adult mandates, adult directives, etc. comes from?  I find such things in direct opposition and conflict with the Boy-Led emphasis relative to the Patrol Method of scouting.

 

From the NESA quote, if the SM listens, encourages and takes an interest, how does this relate to SM as the top-dog leader, grand pooh-bah of the troop? 

 

From some of the examples of adult character I have seen demonstrated around the scouting world, I can see why youth leadership has tanked over the years.

 

Your thoughts?

 

 

[Eagledad]

Okay, these are the top two "official" results of the Google search one from NESA.ORG and the other SCOUTING.ORG.  From my reading of both, I can't seem to get my head wrapped around the idea that association with adults has anything to do with the adults able to mentor, direct, guide or otherwise interfere with the other methods of scouting, such as the Patrol Method.

 

Can anyone give me indication where this concept of adult control, adult mandates, adult directives, etc. comes from?  I find such things in direct opposition and conflict with the Boy-Led emphasis relative to the Patrol Method of scouting.

 

Umm, what? So are you saying that mentor, direct and guide are in opposition and conflict with boy-led emphasis and are in the same group as adult control, adult mandates and adult directives?

 

Barry

[TAHAWK]

The definition of Adult Association for official; training is as follows:

 

 

 

Associations With Adults—Boys learn a great deal by watching how adults conduct themselves. Scout leaders can be positive role models for the members of the troop. In many cases, a Scoutmaster, a merit badge counselor, or one of the troop parents who is willing to listen to boys, encourage them, and take a sincere interest in them can make a profound difference in their lives. Adult association is also part of what we call a youth-led troop. Adults understand that their role is to create a safe place where boys can learn and grow and explore and play and take on responsibilities—and fail, and get up and try again. If you were involved with Cub Scouting, this is a very different role that can take some time getting used to.

 

Having published those words, B.S.A..does little to explain the Patrol Method, to encourage use of the Patrol Method, or to discourage the "troop method."  Again, if the Patrol method were important to B.S.A., what might it do to restore it in reality to its theoretical centrality to Scouting?

[Stosh]

As defined by some, an emphatic YES.

 

TAHAWK jumped in with a more complete explanation. 

 

So I'll say yes again.  It says, LISTEN, ENCOURAGE, and TAKE AN INTEREST, never does it say mentor, direct or guide.  Those are leadership concepts reserved for the youth.  I'm thinking the boys are supposed to be doing the mentoring, directing and guiding as part of their leadership development.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Stosh

[Stosh]

The definition of Adult Association for official; training is as follows:

 

 

 

 

Having published those words, B.S.A..does little to explain the Patrol Method, to encourage use of the Patrol Method, or to discourage the "troop method."  Again, if the Patrol method were important to B.S.A., what might it do to restore it in reality to its theoretical centrality to Scouting?

 

Teach that adulthood in Scouting begins at age 11.  In many cultures around the world that is true.  Only in America does childhood extend into the 30's and 40's. 

 

Every youth that has come into any youth program I have been involved with has gotten the benefit of the doubt when I clearly state up-front, "Mr. LastName, you will be treated like an adult by me until you prove otherwise."  It is remarkable how that makes the difference when young people hear that.  A vast majority will hold you to it and once proven to them you mean it, the relationship will take a positive change almost overnight.  It might not happen overnight, but given time to build trust, it will happen.

[Eagledad]

As defined by some, an emphatic YES.

 

TAHAWK jumped in with a more complete explanation. 

 

So I'll say yes again.  It says, LISTEN, ENCOURAGE, and TAKE AN INTEREST, never does it say mentor, direct or guide.  Those are leadership concepts reserved for the youth.  I'm thinking the boys are supposed to be doing the mentoring, directing and guiding as part of their leadership development.

Well I don't believe that is what TAWHAWK said, but I would like you and TAWHAWK to show us where mentoring and guiding are not good techniques to work with scouts? And let's throw coaching in there as well.

 

Barry

 

Barry

[Stosh]

Well I don't believe that is what TAWHAWK said, but I would like you and TAWHAWK to show us where mentoring and guiding are not good techniques to work with scouts? And let's throw coaching in there as well.

 

Barry

 

Barry

We can't because I for one think that mentoring, guiding and coaching are fantastic techniques FOR THE BOYS TO USE in their work with other scouts.  They are all great leadership techniques FOR THE BOYS TO USE rather than some of the more directing, delegating and threatening management techniques one has as their disposal.

 

One also has to remember as an adult, every time an adult uses these techniques, they are taking away from another boy leader their opportunity to lead the troop and instead reinforces the notion that the adults are the real leaders, not the boys.

 

It is not a stretch to see manipulative mentoring adults getting the boys to run the show according to the goals (and/or "vision") of the adults and announcing proudly that their troop is boy-run.  Which sounds remarkably like but is only a small part of boy led.

 

As UC I always look at the dynamics of what's happening, not just being satisfied with the words being used.

 

Sadly even in professional sports, the coach still calls the plays for professional football.  So to use coaching as an example of teaching leadership doesn't carry any weight with me.

[TAHAWK]

"Train 'em."   Bill Hillcourt.

 

"advise"  Bill Hillcourt (re Scoutmaster)

 

"train and guide boy leaders.

 

Appoint Scout leaders with the advice and consent of the Scoutmaster  

 

The Scoutmaster and other adults with the Troop act as non-voting advisors and resources for the Scout leaders in their program planning

 

Meet regularly with the patrol leaders’ council for training and coordination in planning troop activities.

 

 

I think all this adds up to the adults working indirectly - influencing what happens by the training, guidance, encouragement, and counsel they give to the leaders.  

 

[Stosh]

And why can't that all be done by the boys?  If they are trained correctly in the first place and they only seek advice on their own accord, and to offer suggestions that are non-binding and non-voted on by them there should be very little if no influence from the adults.

 

As we all know, adults have the power to mentor, guide and direct youth.  This is why we need YPT.

 

Adults are also under the impression that it's a lot easier to do it yourself than to wait patiently for some kid to figure it out on his own.  After all the simple solution is glaringly obvious to everyone but the kid.

 

Parents mentor, guide and direct, but they run the show as the true leaders.

 

Teachers mentor, guide and direct, but they run the show as the true leaders.

 

Pastors mentor, guide and direct, but they run the show as the true leaders.

 

Only the BSA promotes something different where they make claim to young boys that they will be in the leadership of the program and then when they get in there, they find out that in reality it is no different than any other adult-led program for youth.   Might as well stick with sports, band, church youth and other programs that allow electronic games and cell phones.  At least with these other programs they aren't being misled with empty promises.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Stosh

[blw2]

a first blush, i wanted to write something about the whole program direction being vague, or open to interpretation..... which leads to misinterpretation or otherwise changing in the name of "improvement".  sort of going back to my "one program thought" having to do with a lack of consistency...

BUT

I'm reminded of the book i recently read by baden powell, Aids to Scoutmastership.  In there, a lot of the language tends towards mentorship and guidance...

 

I want to agree with your post in spirit though.  It does seem like lost opportunities for the boys every time an adult opens a mouth during a meeting that is not a Scoutmaster's Minute

[Stosh]

a first blush, i wanted to write something about the whole program direction being vague, or open to interpretation..... which leads to misinterpretation or otherwise changing in the name of "improvement".  sort of going back to my "one program thought" having to do with a lack of consistency...

BUT

I'm reminded of the book i recently read by baden powell, Aids to Scoutmastership.  In there, a lot of the language tends towards mentorship and guidance...

 

I want to agree with your post in spirit though.  It does seem like lost opportunities for the boys every time an adult opens a mouth during a meeting that is not a Scoutmaster's Minute

Green Bar Bill said it best.  TRAIN 'EM, TRUST 'EM, LET THEM LEAD.  I have no problem with training them, but most interfering adults feel that's an ongoing process and never get to step two.  It also plays into the abuse of adult management being promoted by BSA today now that they have totally dumped GBB from the pages of BSA history.  

[John-in-KC]

I look at Adult Association more in the context of the merit badge program, where Scouts do work directly with qualified adults.  Merit badges are a blend of self-discovery and guided discovery learning.

 

As far as what Green Bar Bill said, I do dispute the non-voting.  Adults do have vetoes, and legal obligations to veto activities.

- Plans which are, on their face, usafe.

- Plans which are beyond reasonable cost for adult support.

 

Hopefully, the SM can stop them before they go to the Committee, but when the SM and the CC work together, and have each others back, sometimes it's the CC's job to be the bad cop.

 

PS:  One of the valuable life lessons is learning to accept a boss saying uneqivocally NO.

Edited January 19, 2016 by John-in-KC

[Stosh]

  I remember once a boss saying to me an unequivocal NO.  It cost the company $10,000 and that was back in the 1970's.  He was fired the next day.   

 

PS: I'm sure it was one of the valuable life lessons he learned, too. 

[blw2]

Interesting thread Stosh

You know, I'm thinking.... it might all boil down to human nature

and a habit of micromanaging

 

Something I've noticed through life is that more often than not it seems like people will tend towards micromanaging.

yeah, yeah, some personality types do it more than others... and maybe that's it entirely... maybe its more about certain people that have a certain "type" that do it.... not just everyone or anyone

Regardless, my point is that we have all known it experienced the receiving end of it, and I'd guess that at least most of us have done it.

 

It seems that it takes purposeful intention to NOT micromanage sometimes.  It seems like it often takes a thoughtful person, maybe someone that has read and studied a lot on the topic of psychology and/or management, maybe read some of the many self help books that address it in one way or another...

 

So maybe it's because micromanaging is just so hard of a habit to break, and without good training and modeling in scouts people just don't come about it naturally.

[Stosh]

I one read somewhere that a pet peeve was something you don't like about yourself that annoys you when others do it.

 

@@blw2 maybe you're right on the micromanaging thing.  Maybe that's why our pet peeve is helicopter parents. 

 

"Associations With Adults—Boys learn a great deal by watching how adults conduct themselves. Scout leaders can be positive role models for the members of the troop. In many cases, a Scoutmaster, a merit badge counselor, or one of the troop parents who is willing to listen to boys, encourage them, and take a sincere interest in them can make a profound difference in their lives. Adult association is also part of what we call a youth-led troop. Adults understand that their role is to create a safe place where boys can learn and grow and explore and play and take on responsibilities—and fail, and get up and try again. If you were involved with Cub Scouting, this is a very different role that can take some time getting used to." TAHAWK's training curriculum quote.

 

From my understanding of this quote there is no place for perpetual coaching, mentoring, or guiding.  Just listening, encouraging, taking an interest and creating a safe place for the boys to develop their leadership.

 

Perpetual coaching, mentoring and guiding just might be this micromanaging you are talking about blw2.....  Something to think on anyway.  I wonder if there is such a thing as a helicopter SM.    Naw that could never happen.