Change in The Troop, It's Coming

[Eagle94-A1]

One reason why I hated becoming the NSP ASM is because it IS too much like Cub Scouts IMHO.  I've fought tooth and nail to stay out of it.

 

I too have seen NSPs ASMs who basically treated it like a Cub den.

 

And I bet a Dutch oven cobbler that some adult in national came up with the NSP comcept. And I bet it was heavily influenced by the LDS model where their 11 year olds are limited as to what they can do.

[blw2]

....Scouts sticking together at the beginning of their Boy Scout experience is such a small small thing in the huge picture of the scouts whole experience. Just how long does it take for boys to make friends? If this is the only reason for defending NSPs, then blw2, you aren't being open minded of what other experienced scouters are saying. And I'm not saying you need to use mixed age patrols, I think some adults just are NSP types. But please don't imply troops using mixed age patrols have less programs, the BSA used mixed age patrols very successfully for 80 years before the NSP was brought into the program. There is no evidence to show that the NSP has improved first year losses, which is why it was implemented. Can you explain that? I can and have many many times. 

 

All I'm saying is that someone with no experience either way shouldn't be selling their soul telling others who have the experience that their program isn't as good a program. 

 

Barry

Well thanks for that Barry, I really appreciate that opinion.

How long does it take?... maybe not long at all for an extroverted happy hearted scout.... a good bit longer for a shy one perhaps... &, well maybe an eternity if the other boys they are forced together with are not a good fit for him.

The only other comment I have on that is that a person might have been doing something 50 years..... BUT that doesn't mean they were doing it correctly! 

Lecturing someone else about having an open mind, if you yourself do not have one, kinda destroys your credibility.... just a tip from a novice that has been walking this earth dealing with people for only just shy of 50 years..... but then, maybe I've been going about that all wrong in that short time 

 

Yes, in my area there are about 1/3 of the troops use the NSP method. All the units I know of that use NSPs are very large (100+ scouts) troops. They put their first years (usually a class of 15-25 scouts) in NSPs. They assign ASMs (usually have 30 on staff) in charge of the NSPs. I have seen them at camporee...they are literally Cub Dens. The ASM shepherds them around like Webelos. Sad really. Some parents like that approach. I laugh when I hear them talk about "boy-led". I am sure they *think* they are, but there is no way a 15 year old SPL can managed a troop of 10 patrols, 100+ kids and 30+ adults on a camp out. Even at 50% participation that's like having two platoons!!!

 

 

THAT is not a boy-led NSP!  You are absolutely correct this is Webelos III! No other way to explain it.

 

30 ASM's?  Adult led all the way!

 

SPL with 10 patrols needs 2-3 ASPL's to handle the crowd.  There would be very little interaction between SPL and PL's it would most likely be good ASPL's handling the patrols and 4 TG's handling the 4 NSP's if run correctly.

 

No way would I get anywhere near a unit like that.  It's kinda sad if one thinks about it a bit.

 

 

One reason why I hated becoming the NSP ASM is because it IS too much like Cub Scouts IMHO.  I've fought tooth and nail to stay out of it.

 

I too have seen NSPs ASMs who basically treated it like a Cub den.

 

And I bet a Dutch oven cobbler that some adult in national came up with the NSP comcept. And I bet it was heavily influenced by the LDS model where their 11 year olds are limited as to what they can do.

my troop is not nearly that big as Krampus' example, & I'd guess the bulk is 1st class and lower

but it was said that a ASM will be assigned to the NSP, so I do fear that Krampus and Eagledad and Eagle94's experiences might be closer to the truth in my son's case... than is Stosh's model of how it might work (which really does make sense to me)

 

I know the ASM that was mentioned, and he is a really great guy, in many ways.  A former DL in my pack and an Eagle himself.  Based on his personality and the way he works, there is good hope for the best.

[Sentinel947]

As I've said in earlier post, the main reason adults get in the way of the scouts and their program is their fear of what could happen.

 

Scouts sticking together at the beginning of their Boy Scout experience is such a small small thing in the huge picture of the scouts whole experience. Just how long does it take for boys to make friends? If this is the only reason for defending NSPs, then blw2, you aren't being open minded of what other experienced scouters are saying. And I'm not saying you need to use mixed age patrols, I think some adults just are NSP types. But please don't imply troops using mixed age patrols have less programs, the BSA used mixed age patrols very successfully for 80 years before the NSP was brought into the program. There is no evidence to show that the NSP has improved first year losses, which is why it was implemented. Can you explain that? I can and have many many times. 

 

All I'm saying is that someone with no experience either way shouldn't be selling their soul telling others who have the experience that their program isn't as good a program. 

 

Barry

@@barry I'm a firm believer in the NSP. I joined Scouts because my friends did. They pushed me to do it. I thought I was too cool to be a boy scout. Had I been separated from my friends at my first troop meeting, it would have been my last troop meeting. It may seem like a small thing to you, but it can be huge in the mind of an 11 year old. I look at the requirements for Eagle now, and they aren't super challenging, nothing I can't handle. When I was 16, they seemed extremely difficult.

 

@@blw2 That being said, I think either an NSP or seeding the new scouts into existing patrols can work. Again, the trick is to have a clear vision for how it's going to work, trained youth leaders, adults that are willing to drink coffee, sit on their hands (except to drink the aforementioned coffee), and observe. The point is to have the patrol method, getting hung up on the type of patrols being utilized is arguing over two very good and viable methods to making it work. 

 

To all: Poorly utilized NSP's end up being Webelos 3. Poorly utilized mix age patrols can just as easily be webelos 3. This is on the adults, not as much the Scouts.

 

Funny how so much of the issues we discuss here end up coming down to adults. The scouts are just out there to be with their buddies and have fun. 

 

Sentinel947

[Eagle94-A1]

I know the ASM that was mentioned, and he is a really great guy, in many ways.  A former DL in my pack and an Eagle himself.  Based on his personality and the way he works, there is good hope for the best.

 

How long has he been out of Cub Scouts? Speaking from experience on both sides of the spectrum, the worse adult offenders are former Cub Leaders. As a youth, the worse part of getting new Scouts were their parents. They kept butting in and interfering with the program. As an adult, I know I have interfered too much. I've posted elsewhere about striking a balance between adult involvement, and youth led.

 

To be honest, this is a relatively new experience; establishing, or re-establishing, a new troop. I've been fortunate to have been in established troops with older scouts who did the work. I know what my previous experience tells me (sit down and drink coffee until REALLY needed), and I am seeing another NSP mess like the I dealt with when my troop was guinea pigs back in the day.

[Stosh]

 that Krampus and Eagledad and Eagle94's experiences might be closer to the truth in my son's case... than is Stosh's model of how it might work (which really does make sense to me)

 

I know the ASM that was mentioned, and he is a really great guy, in many ways.  A former DL in my pack and an Eagle himself.  Based on his personality and the way he works, there is good hope for the best.

 

Based on these closing comments of the post, may I suggest taking what you know and working with the ASM to make sure the NSP has a real chance at developing into a Scout patrol instead of a Webelos den?  This is my suggestion for leading from the back seat.  Help the ASM understand boy-led, patrol-method, trusting your boys, and letting them lead.  Nothing in the BSA book says you can't do that!  From your description of the guy, I seriously think he isn't going to tell you to bugger off.

 

Worst case scenario, you gain an enemy.  Best case scenario, you now have two boy-led, patrol-method champions in the troop.  If the two of you pull it off, every new Webelos boy will be eternally grateful for the opportunity to be a real Boy Scout from day one in the troop.  If nothing else, getting these new boys in the routine of self-leading will carry over into the future years of the troop as the boys get older.

[Eagledad]

 

The only other comment I have on that is that a person might have been doing something 50 years..... BUT that doesn't mean they were doing it correctly! 

 

That's rich, you have been involved in the troop program how long? 

 

I'm curious what you think would be different between two identical scouts who had two identical scouting experiences except only  one went NSP. What is this fear of yours?

 

Lecturing someone else about having an open mind, if you yourself do not have one, kinda destroys your credibility.... 

 

I have been very open to the advantages and disadvantages of different patrols because I have a lot of experience with them. I question what I said in my last post that points to credibility of this subject. 

 

 

Barry

[qwazse]

I consider blw2's opinions to be a demonstration of what one can learn about the patrol method from current sources -- outside of being in a couple of troops and watching their patrols morph over the years.

 

 

What would be nice, for him, is if a few adults in the troops were reading those same sources.

[Stosh]

One must always take into consideration that an 11 year-old can spot adult hypocrisy in a heartbeat.  It doesn't take 40 years of experience to spot a con-job.  They also do even better at recognizing sincere concern on the part of the adults whenever that is offered as well.  Listen, encourage and take an interest in the boy is the definition of adult association.  Anything more than that could be seen/defined as interference. 

 

Your mileage may vary.

[Stosh]

I consider blw2's opinions to be a demonstration of what one can learn about the patrol method from current sources -- outside of being in a couple of troops and watching their patrols morph over the years.

 

 

What would be nice, for him, is if a few adults in the troops were reading those same sources.

 

Or when confronted by others in his troop as to where he got such lame-brained ideas about how to run a troop using the boys as leaders, he can always says he got it from the idiots on the scouter.com forum. 

[Krampus]

Why are we thinking that scouts staying in the same patrol means using the NSP model?

 

NSP puts all boys of the same age in a patrol. That's a plus. The minus is everything else they don't get exposed to that they would in mixed patrols.

 

Most units I know who use mixed patrols keep friends together. No need for NSPs.

[Sentinel947]

Or when confronted by others in his troop as to where he got such lame-brained ideas about how to run a troop using the boys as leaders, he can always says he got it from the idiots on the scouter.com forum. 

 

[DuctTape]

IMO there should not be NSP, same-age patrols, nor mixed-aged patrols. There are just patrols. When we label them a certain way we interfere with their construct. The boys pick up on the labels so even when put to their own devices will use those adult labels as parameters in their decisions. Thus, I never use any of the labels, I just refer to them as patrols.

[Eagledad]

@@barry I'm a firm believer in the NSP. I joined Scouts because my friends did. They pushed me to do it. I thought I was too cool to be a boy scout. Had I been separated from my friends at my first troop meeting, it would have been my last troop meeting. It may seem like a small thing to you, but it can be huge in the mind of an 11 year old. I look at the requirements for Eagle now, and they aren't super challenging, nothing I can't handle. When I was 16, they seemed extremely difficult.

 

Sentinel, why would it seem like a small thing to me. You have no idea how hard we work to do the right thing with our whole scouting program. You think I just think this stuff up and spew it hoping to get praise from fellow forum members? And please don't assume that just because I bring balance to the discussion that I don't think the NSP has value. We used the NSP for several years right next to our mixed age patrols. Some situations require the NSP structure

 

Why in the world would you assume that we wouldn't take scouting as serious as you. You didn't get mixed into a patrol as a new scout, so you don't have a clue how it might have workedfor you. We took our new scout program so seriously that we gained a reputation for also being accepting and compassionate of all scouts. As a result, we were getting a lot of handicapped boys from the area. You want to talk about handicapped scouts in a boy run program. I have a lot of Balanced experience there too and a broken heart to show for it. I know watching our Patrols side by side the advantages and disadvantages of NSP, mixed age, same age, adventure patrols, leadership patrols, old scout patrols and and on and on. We started with 17 scouts and had over 100 when I retired as SM. And we were boy run. That is very rare. Ask any scouter here with a larger patrol method troop of the challenges of being a boy run program with a large number of scouts. But we are Patrol Method and that reputation seems to drive scouts to our troop. Do you know how hard it is to find places to camp with 100 scouts where the patrols can camp 100 yards apart?

 

I am pretty sure that you would not have left our troop the first night. Of the hundreds of new scouts we brought into the troop, I can't recall a single scout leaving because they were mixed in with with an established patrol. We had a lot less complaints with scouts joining established patrols than the families of NSPs, especially with the parents. Older experienced scouts are pretty nice guys and know how to  have a lot of fun. 

 

It is true, I think NSPs are a form of helicopter parenting because the motivation behind NSP is very much adult driven. But they do have a place in the program. It depends on the troop situation with new scouts. 

 

Barry

[Krampus]

+1 @@Eagledad

[Stosh]

IMO there should not be NSP, same-age patrols, nor mixed-aged patrols. There are just patrols. When we label them a certain way we interfere with their construct. The boys pick up on the labels so even when put to their own devices will use those adult labels as parameters in their decisions. Thus, I never use any of the labels, I just refer to them as patrols.

 

You are correct.  However, on the forum here I do use the labels to make it clear the type of patrol I am referring to, but when I'm in my troop or around other troops, the patrols are referred to by their specific, boy chosen names.  If the older boys wish to think of the new guys as new guys instead of "the Ravens", then they usually get a lot of blank stares from me and the other adults.  Not all the new boys go into the newest patrol (i.e. NSP), some choose to go with older siblings or new friends in the other patrols if they so choose.