Who is the "Top Leader" in the troop?

[Stosh]

Remember,

 

A patrol is supposed to be a cross between a direct democracy, and a structured work team.  It decides things as a democracy, it executes as a work team.

 

Totally agree!

 

A troop is a grouping of patrols with some leadership overhead:  The Patrol Leader's Council is the decisionmaking body, the SPL is responsible for running that.  In simple English, it's a miniature Republic.  The collective goes with the final best decision of the collective body.

 

Here's where things begin to break down for me.  I have always believed the scout who paid for the program, with his buddies were the decision making body.  He will work with his buddies to come up with what they think is best for themselves.  Their leader (PL) works with them to facilitate that process.  The PL then takes that decision to the PLC where he informs the PLC what their patrol has decided to do and if any other patrols have decided to do that too, maybe the processes can be coordinated and facilitated by the PLC.  No decisions or over-riding of patrol decisions allowed.  The PLC only supports the needs of the customer.  The PLC is not authorized to tell the customer what they get or the customer will tend to go other places where those needs will be met. 

 

The traditional structure of scouting is set up to open the possibility of the customer going elsewhere.  50 years ago when the BSA was a powerhouse in the world of young boys, there were not as many "other options" out there in competition with the BSA program.  Today that has changed, but BSA structure of telling the customer what they want is not as effective as when they held more of a monopoly over the lives of boy's time and interests.

 

The Scoutmaster is supposed to be the Chief cat herder and guide of all this mess.  As is seen in our own 2016 elections, that isn't easy.

 

As far as what BSA expects, the Scoutmaster is the Chief Program Officer, the Committee Chair is the Chief Support Officer, and the Chartered Partner COR/IH are the licensees of record of the use of the Scouting program

 

Many moving parts, each having a role...

 

None of which are designed to be answerable to the more flexible market available to young boys of today.

 

Unless BSA has a Toyota epiphany, we're going to see BSA end up the same place as Detroit.

[fred johnson]

Context ... Questions like these need always be placed in context.  "Who's the top leader?" ... depends on what you are trying to get at.  

 

IMHO ... Handbook says that because the troop is the boys.  The handbook is for the boys.  The adults support the troop but are supporting members.  We want the boys to think of the troop as the boys and not including the adults.  

[TAHAWK]

The message from B.S.A. is confused because many in top slots don't know much about Scouting (as opposed to B.S.A.) and/or aren't very skilled.  They have "mislaid" the Patrol Method.  They are too busy with other issues to spend a lot of time of the quality of the "product."

[blw2]

So does a football fan pull for a team (aka patrol) or do they pull for the NFL League (aka troop)?

 

Context ... Questions like these need always be placed in context.  "Who's the top leader?" ... depends on what you are trying to get at.  

 

IMHO ... Handbook says that because the troop is the boys.  The handbook is for the boys.  The adults support the troop but are supporting members.  We want the boys to think of the troop as the boys and not including the adults.  

Seems to me this thinking in terms of the troop is where this falls apart.

and this language of the SPL being top really just reinforces a mistake.

 

I'm not a football fan by the way.... but I have to say I've only seen fans pulling for a team, not for the League

 

There just seems to be to much focus on troop, and not enough on patrol..... seems like lip service

[Stosh]

If one is to teach the boys how the "world works", I have adopted in the back of my mind the theoretical structure the BSA uses itself.

 

We all know the structure of the BSA in reality.

 

National President -> National Office -> Regional Office -> Council Office -> District Staff - Units.

 

If this structure is designed to provide the customer what it is the BSA is selling, it's adequate at best but it does seem to take a while to really get into it's downward death spiral.

 

If the Unit on the bottom wishes to adopt this archaic structure, why not look at the parallel structure of the Council.

 

Council -> District -> Troop

 

SM -> SPL(PLC) -> PL(Patrol)

 

That would make patrols the customer contact and SPL(PLC) the district support personnel and the SM the Council SE.  We all know how well that whole thing is working, but in reality if torqued to work on a practical level and not just theoretical, the whole concept of the patrol being answerable to the customer instead of the SM things might work out better.

 

Personally I think the only reason the downward death spiral of the program has been slowed is because there are units still out there that take their commitment to the customer seriously and work hard at it.  Every time BSA loses a unit it loses a touch with the market out there.  Once they are "out of touch" completely, they will simply shut the doors just like any other business, profit or not profit, out there. It happens ever day.

 

And if one is under the notion that was taught back in my college years that GM was too big to fail as a company, well, we all know how well that turned out.

[MattR]

So does a football fan pull for a team (aka patrol) or do they pull for the NFL League (aka troop)?

 

There just seems to be to much focus on troop, and not enough on patrol..... seems like lip service

 

I think you're preaching to the choir here. That's why we talk about what the relationship is between the different leaders.

 

The original question is who's top dog, or ultimately in charge? For the boy's program that is the SM. End of that discussion. The better discussion is the relationship between the SM, all the PORs, and the scouts. In a nutshell, decisions should be pushed as low as possible, but along with that are boundaries on the decisions and the right to step in if those boundaries are crossed. If a PL says his patrol wants to do something different from the rest of the troop, and it fits within the boundaries that have come down from above, then we will support them. If the decision is to replace a camporee with a lock in at a strip joint then I reserve my right to say no, assuming the SPL doesn't beat me to it. It should be the same thing for the SPL among the PLs and the PL among his patrol. The PL should not decide for the scout responsible for cleaning who should be doing what. Those decisions are pushed down to the scout. However, if the scout decides it would be fun for one scout to clean everything while everyone else takes off to buy ice cream, then it would be reasonable for the PL to step in. That's an opportunity for the PL to teach the scout something about leadership.

[Stosh]

I think you're preaching to the choir here. That's why we talk about what the relationship is between the different leaders.

 

The original question is who's top dog, or ultimately in charge? For the boy's program that is the SM. End of that discussion.

 

Nope, that IS the discussion.

 

The better discussion is the relationship between the SM, all the PORs, and the scouts. In a nutshell, decisions should be pushed as low as possible,

 

Not if the unit is running a BOY-led program.  An adult-led, boy-run program perhaps, but definitely not a boy-led program.

 

but along with that are boundaries

 

Imposed or at least directed by the adults I'm guessing.  Sometimes referred to as by-laws, traditions, rules, etc.  All indicators of adult-led programs.

 

on the decisions and the right to step in if those boundaries are crossed.

 

So then we are in agreement that at any time the SM can step in and overrule the boy-run process at his/her discretion because in fact he/she's the real leader after all.   Doesn't do much for building trust, but it does maintain adult control of the program.

 

If a PL says his patrol wants to do something different from the rest of the troop, and it fits within the boundaries that have come down from above,

 

We're back to adult-control again.

 

then we will support them.

 

But only if they do what the adults want them to do.  A real trust-buster at best.

 

If the decision is to replace a camporee with a lock in at a strip joint then I reserve my right to say no, assuming the SPL doesn't beat me to it.

 

If one can't trust the boys any better than that, then one needs to rethink their position.  I've been with a no-rules approach to youth development programs for 40+ years and have never had to deal with an issue like that.  Just this past weekend when our boys hosted the Webelos boys to winter camp, the Webelos boys got the Mr. Stosh "lecture".  "I will treat you like an adult until you prove to me you aren't." I have no intention of doing it differently because it works for me. 

 

It should be the same thing for the SPL among the PLs and the PL among his patrol. The PL should not decide for the scout responsible for cleaning who should be doing what.

 

Not in my book, the PL should be taking care of his boys.  The boys have paid to come and should receive the program BSA promised.  It's up to the PL to provide it.  He's the first contact with the customer.

 

Those decisions are pushed down to the scout. However, if the scout decides it would be fun for one scout to clean everything while everyone else takes off to buy ice cream, then it would be reasonable for the PL to step in. That's an opportunity for the PL to teach the scout something about leadership.

 

It doesn't do much good to abdicate the Patrol LEADER's responsibility to the customer down to the customer.   The boys come for the program, the leaders (PL) are there to make sure they get their money's worth.  If the customer is to decide, he can decide to walk at any time the moment the program isn't what was advertised.  And seriously, I don't blame them one bit. 

Each thing mentioned are the trip points of the top-down approach to leadership.  It used to work fairly well for management, but even then those dynamics have changed in recent years.  As far as leadership is concerned, they have never worked well.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Stosh

[MattR]

Stosh, I knew you weren't going to like this. I suspect we're really not too far apart.

 

The idea of pushing decisions as low as possible is not mine, but can be seen in the military, agile computing, and in manufacturing, to name just a few. Groups make decisions within boundaries. If the boundaries don't make sense then they can try and change them, but those above do have final say. Wisdom from above is important in setting boundaries.

 

If the scouts decide to have a lock in at a strip joint, does the SM have the right to say no? How about tubing on class 5 rapids? If your answer is no, this is not the SM's domain then there's nothing else for us to talk about. If you say yes then clearly there is a place for adults to set boundaries. The question is where.

 

That gets down to what are the consequences of a bad decision. We've already covered safety and getting your troop's picture in Google News. How about if a parent calls you and says my son is going to quit because his entire patrol teased him about his weight at the campout. Further, the scout talked to his PL and SPL who both told him to get over it. Assuming this in fact did happen, is the SM allowed to step in? You said "If the [scout] is to decide, he can decide to walk at any time the moment the program isn't what was advertised.  And seriously, I don't blame them one bit."  This implies you'd encourage the scout to quit and maybe find another troop. Is that so? You'd tell the parent to take his son elsewhere because it's a boy led troop? I'd step in because 1) the consequences of a bad decision by the scouts is a kid leaving and 2) I am responsible for the program being as advertised. If you let this sort of thing happen then that's your choice, I wouldn't.

 

Now, if the consequence is something like a program being too hard, or too boring, or too whatever, we agree, that's not the decision of the SM.

 

That being said, I just did something similar. I made the scouts rework part of the calendar because the scouts took the easy way out of a problem and cancelled an event rather than find a replacement when the original idea got changed for reasons beyond anyone's control. I said no, come up with a replacement. They complained for about a minute and then started asking questions. I sat in on a PLC meeting tonight and the result is a better campout then I've seen in a long time. I set a boundary for them and they responded with a great idea. You may disagree with what I've done and I respect that. I can see the side that says let them go and try and work more adventure in a different way. I find a lot of  scouts are hesitant to try new things and they need that extra push. In this case it worked.

[Stosh]

Every adult leader has their own "style" as to how to deal with youth.  My "style" probably doesn't work for everyone as well as it does for me.  Also my style may not fit the culture that others find themselves in.  However, it works for me, it causes less concern from what I'm hearing others express and so I'll just keep on plugging along with what I got.  I also draw from a wider base of youth, not just scouts. 

 

Stosh, I knew you weren't going to like this. I suspect we're really not too far apart.

 

No, were not that far apart.  I have thought your comments worth considering many times.

 

The idea of pushing decisions as low as possible is not mine, but can be seen in the military, agile computing, and in manufacturing, to name just a few. Groups make decisions within boundaries. If the boundaries don't make sense then they can try and change them, but those above do have final say. Wisdom from above is important in setting boundaries.

 

Of course those who still cling to the management style will never abdicate the final say-so because they are bound by successful completion of the task and it's not important the people involved as long as it gets done.  If John can't get it done, have Tom take over, and if he can't, then get Sally in there.  Just get it done.  People are nothing more than tools to accomplish the task.  Of course they aren't going to allow them to really make decisions.  First of all they may or may not even trust them to do the job right to begin with.  Being at the top of the structure does not insure wisdom either.   

 

If the scouts decide to have a lock in at a strip joint, does the SM have the right to say no?

 

After 40+ years of working with youth, I can honestly say no one has ever suggested this.  It's a bit over the top.

 

How about tubing on class 5 rapids?

 

I operate with 3 rules in my troop, the boys are all in agreement they are good rules.  1) Safety first, 2) Look and act like a scout, and 3) Have fun.  They would never suggest this unless they were older boys and if it didn't conflict with Rule #1, then I'd say have at it.

 

If your answer is no, this is not the SM's domain then there's nothing else for us to talk about. If you say yes then clearly there is a place for adults to set boundaries. The question is where. 

 

I'm thinking my boys are familiar with G2SS and make their plans according to BSA policy.  I as an adult have yet to countermand them because of this BSA policy process.  As an adult they know the organization of which they are a part and made mature decisions based on the organization's policies, not some random adult with an itch to scratch.

 

That gets down to what are the consequences of a bad decision. We've already covered safety and getting your troop's picture in Google News. How about if a parent calls you and says my son is going to quit because his entire patrol teased him about his weight at the campout.

 

Believe it or not, this is covered in my troop under Rule #1.  Any scout that doesn't feel safe for any reason is to report it to his PL, and if he doesn't listen, then the SPL, if he doesn't listen then the SM, then the parents, then whoever will listen and if no one will listen, call 911.  They have a leadership responsibility to take care of themselves along with others and all of this is part and parcel to Rule #2 - Look and act like a scout.  No one has pushed the issue in my troops and I haven't heard of anyone having to set another scout straight either.

 

Further, the scout talked to his PL and SPL who both told him to get over it.

 

And my comment to both of them would be, "This is how you take care of your boys???"  However, once again, I've never had to address this issue in my troops.

 

Assuming this in fact did happen, is the SM allowed to step in? You said "If the [scout] is to decide, he can decide to walk at any time the moment the program isn't what was advertised.  And seriously, I don't blame them one bit."  This implies you'd encourage the scout to quit and maybe find another troop. Is that so?

 

No, I said I wouldn't blame him if he quit.  That's no where near encouraging him to do so.  If he was indeed dead set on leaving, I would encourage him to find another troop before giving up on his scouting career.  Yes, I would even help him find a new home in a different troop if possible.  Both the SPL and PL in this case know that such a reaction on their part would constitute proof to me they were not the adults I was assuming they were.   Not many have ever pushed that envelop.

 

You'd tell the parent to take his son elsewhere because it's a boy led troop? I'd step in because 1) the consequences of a bad decision by the scouts is a kid leaving and 2) I am responsible for the program being as advertised. If you let this sort of thing happen then that's your choice, I wouldn't.

 

Once a boy quits the troop program, it's no longer within the realm of the boy's leadership domain.  They blew it and I would work with the leaving scout, yes.

 

Now, if the consequence is something like a program being too hard, or too boring, or too whatever, we agree, that's not the decision of the SM.

 

That being said, I just did something similar. I made the scouts rework part of the calendar because the scouts took the easy way out of a problem and cancelled an event rather than find a replacement when the original idea got changed for reasons beyond anyone's control. I said no, come up with a replacement. They complained for about a minute and then started asking questions. I sat in on a PLC meeting tonight and the result is a better campout then I've seen in a long time. I set a boundary for them and they responded with a great idea. You may disagree with what I've done and I respect that. I can see the side that says let them go and try and work more adventure in a different way. I find a lot of  scouts are hesitant to try new things and they need that extra push. In this case it worked.

Technically I do set somewhat of a boundary.  As mentioned in another thread, I let every scout coming into my troop know that they will be treated as an adult until they prove differently.  As I mentioned above, VERY few youth have ever pressed that issue over the years and for the most part they have been the youth that were NOT in the scout program that did.  I've never had to send a boy home from an event, I've never had to have a parent called in to babysit him if he is going to stay, etc.  Yet I hear all these things from other scouters.  I have run into some tense situations, i.e. knife fights between scouts, vandalism, theft, discipline problems, etc. but they are not my boys.  Is there a magical formula or some super power I possess.  I don't think so, I just expect them to act like adults and they do.  I trust them and they trust me. 

 

I don't use "Sign's up" in my troop.  I respect my boys when they are talking and they respect me when I'm talking.  BUT once they got out of hand and I held "Sign's up!"    I overheard one of my older boys telling  the new Webelos boys NEVER to push it, you never want to see Mr. Stosh hold up "Sign's Up!"  I definitely did not say anything nor were they ever punished, I just held up my hand.  The magic was, I did not react like other adults they have known and they didn't know what to make of it.   The strange thing about it, whenever an adult goes to the front of the room to address the boys, the room drops to dead silence without having to do "Sign's Up!".  If that's manipulating the group as an adult leader, I'm guilty.  If it's teaching the boys to be respectful, then I'm guilty of that too.  TRAIN 'EM, then TRUST 'EM....  The training stuff is nothing more than what being an adult is all about.

 

Son to parent: "When are you going to start treating me like an adult!!!!"

 

Parent: "When you start acting like one!"

 

Well, I train my boys to act like one (Rule #2 - Look and Act like a  Scout) . 

 

A lot of scouters never get the chance to start a new unit from scratch and have no older boys to help with the heavy lifting.  In my situation, I have to expect a higher level than normal maturity from my Webelos cross over boys, they're all I got to work with.  By the time they get to FC, they'll have the maturity and experience of a 16 year old and they'll only be 13 years old.  This is how my 13 year old ADHD scout pulled off the troop's most successful popcorn sale ever.  This is how my scouts receive unsolicited applications to be on camp staff after observing them working with the boys in the troop. 

 

There's nothing special about what I do, I just treat them like adults and they respond in kind.  It's a lot easier running a troop of <18 year old adults than a bunch of boys who's maturity and leadership training is postponed until after they have had 2-3 years of wandering in Scout wilderness before the adults let them try their hand at leading.

 

Year one of my new troop had a Scout ranked scout do the SPL work at summer camp.  The next year another Scout rank scout was SPL at camp.  This summer my SPL will be Tenderfoot or maybe SC if he works on his advancement. 

 

Until they prove to me they are not adults, I have no choice but to trust them.  None of them have ever been in a hurry to prove to me they aren't.

 

Adult association?  -  These boys are as much my friends as those >18 I know.  There's nothing magical about 18.

[MattR]

I figured we were close. Yes, my examples are over the top. But I have a couple of clowns in my troop that have suggested such things just to see my SPL's response as well as mine. My SPL went berserk because he didn't recognize it was a joke and I just smiled. They know there's a boundary and as long as it's very clear what the boundary is the scouts are happy with it.

 

Maybe the difference between leadership and management is whether the guy above respects the boundaries he has set for those below. If the boundaries are constantly changing then nobody below will take ownership, and then they're just cogs. Stosh, you've codified that boundary into your set of rules and everyone knows it, and that's something I should do with my rules. I find that one of the hardest challenges for adults is respecting that boundary and making it clear would help that a lot.

[Stosh]

I'm a firm believer in first impressions.  With that belief comes the task on my part to impart all the training necessary for a smooth running program.  It also helps when one realizes that a 6th grader is still in his educational absorption mode and will take things to heart.  Once they get 7th-8th grade they seem to lose their brains somewhere and when they get to high school they find their brain...with an attitude.  So with that being said, I have multiple short phrases that are easy for the boys to take hold of.  Be safe, Look at like a scout, have fun, take care of your boys, You will be treated like an adult until you prove differently, etc.  From that point on, the boundaries  have been set, expectations spelled out, and it's now time for the boy to put it all together for himself.  I give them the respect of space and they appreciate it.  I don't hover over them, I don't keep an eye on them, I don't keep the training going, I just sit back and let the other boys have an opportunity to lead.  I trust my boys and expect them to take to heart what I've taught them.  Surprisingly they do.

 

Do I have disciple problems?  Sure, on occasion.  Worst one was when the older boys called up a parent on Sunday morning and had her take the boys in his patrol home.  That left the younger boys to clean up camp and they did not tell me what they were up to, nor did they tell the driver what they had done.   Needless to say, no one was hurt, didn't appear to be an act a scout would do, and not everyone had fun.  But they thought it really funny until the PL came to me asking for a recommendation for Eagle from the SM that was required by Council.  I just smiled nicely and went and got a cup of coffee.  He was 16 years old, there was no danger of him aging out.  I had signed off on everything 

How would I deal with a co-worker adult who pulled a stunt like this?  Give him a recommendation for a promotion?  Nope.  Not in the cards.  The boys get treated like adults.

 

The boy stewed about it for a few weeks, went back to the council to let them know I wouldn't give the recommendation.  He had to explain to them why.  Committee chair told me later it wasn't a pretty sight.  They told him to figure it out.  It started with an apology from him, then an apology from each of the patrol members, an apology from the parent driver, and another 6 months from him and his patrol to prove that he deserved that Eagle.  The whole time I never said one word to the boy about the incident.  No punishment, no consequences, nothing.  After 6 months of exemplary scouting, I went down to the scout office and turned in a recommendation.  The committee must have told him they got it, because I never did.

 

His dad was an Eagle with 2 palms, but at his Eagle Court of Honor he invited me up to present me with his only mentor pin.  He teared up, hugged me, shook my hand and thanked me.  After he got his Eagle at 16 1/2, he stayed on and continued his exemplary scouting career.

 

He was trained, I trusted him, and eventually he did lead.  Couldn't ask for anything more even if he fell flat on his face, it wasn't' the end of the world.

 

There was no SM yelling at him re-telling him what the boundaries are, no convening of committee to consider suspension, no parent sitting in on their activities to make sure they behave.  In the long run I think the boy beat on himself a lot more than I ever could.  He squared himself up and that's all that I could expect.  He grew up. 

[PA Scoutmaster]

The top leader? The one who does the work of a leader at the time!

 

Example, at summer camp one year they boys were in a funk about something (can't remember exactly what) and a younger scout (provisional from another troop actually) got a round of song started around the campfire and got everyone going forward. At that moment, he was the top leader ... POR patch notwithstanding.

 

As the Good Book say: let him who is a servant among you be the greatest of all. So, the SPL who serves his PLC well, who in turn serves their patrols well, who in turn surve each other well ... That guy is the top leader.

 

An SPL who assigns tasks and that's about it? Pretty much the bottom of the pecking order as far as I'm concerned.

Good point, Qwazse. Clarke Green had a nice article about this very subject in his blog today:

http://scoutmastercg.com/every-scout-a-leader/