Breaking Bad ... Scouters

[Stosh]

And did the question get answered?  Probably not, probably won't, maybe we can look at some more reasonable situations that might warrant some consideration for the topic being discussed.

[cyclops]

Yes, it was answered in a manner of speaking. You drew a blank and so did Krampus. Jpstodwftexas was silent so I take that as another blank.

It's safe to conclude that we'd all be talking about "that famous incident" if it ever had happened in over 100 years of scouting. It didn't.

But it is possible to imagine all kinds of implausible situations in which all the solutions look like they require discharge of a firearm. When 'Be Prepared' translates to firepower, every problem begins to look like it needs a bullet solution.

 

Got a marauding gaggle of ravenous wild pigs? AR15s with large cap magazines are the ticket. A charging bear? My choice would be a 375 H&H Mag, no compromise. Drug-crazed terrorists? 44 mags....lots of them.

Sound ridiculous? There's a reason for that.

Edited January 24, 2016 by cyclops

[TAHAWK]

And your solution for marauding wild pigs?

 

Bear Spray is supposed to be better than firearms for bears, but it is illegal to carry bear spray in many jurisdictions.

 

Haven't heard about drug-crazed terrorists lately, but they led to adoption of the 1911 .45 pistol.  

[cyclops]

You didn't like my solution to the pigs? OK, we'll go with AK 47s instead, or something equivalent. That better? Whatever it is needs to be autoloading, rapid fire, need to spew as much lead as possible in the shortest time.

[TAHAWK]

And your solution for marauding wild pigs?

[cyclops]

OK, you must really  be into humane kills. We'll have a trough full of beer waiting for them and when they pass out drunk, the boys can slit their throats with their pocket knives.

[TAHAWK]

Well, the AK47 is unlikely to be the answer since it has been a federal felony for generations to possess an automatic weapon without a federal permit.  Use of alcohol is against BSA policy, as is hunting. Maybe loudspeakers and "popular" music.

[cyclops]

Hey, this is MY fantasy, now!

'Popular'? Rap would sure keep me away.

[Krampus]

Are you comparing airlines to scout dining halls? If you know of a single such attempt to commit mass murder in a scout camp dining hall, I'd like to know.

 

 

No. I just pointing out the absurdity of making statements that eliminate other scenarios are possibilities. Who would have ever thought Columbine, Sandy Hook or 9/11 were possible 20 years ago? You telling me that a lunatic in a mess hall is out of the realm of possibilities?

 

 

I'm using the scenario set by jpstodwftexas: some psycho starts shooting up a mess hall full of boy scouts.

That is the person to whom I originally posed the question. But you and Krampus seemed to want to respond to it.

 

It's called a message board. That's how the game is played. People talk and offer opinions via responses.

[Krampus]

And did the question get answered?  Probably not, probably won't, maybe we can look at some more reasonable situations that might warrant some consideration for the topic being discussed.

 

Stosh, @@cyclops stops reading when he posts or when he reaches an answer he likes most.

[Stosh]

Sometimes I use the extreme and outrageous on the forums as a form of sarcasm.  Sometimes I use it for humor.  I don't as if I have ever used it in a serious discussion on an issue that may involve life or death.

 

I'm not advocating AK-47's as part of the patrol chuck box, but I have carried a sheath knife and 6' closet rod "walking stick" with me on many scout outings in the past 15 years.  I felt it necessary after realizing the situation of being in Philmont the year 4 boys ended up in the hospital from bear attacks, Tooth of Time cleared out in the middle of the night after a bear invaded the camp and would not be scared off, and the next year a boy was killed at a neighboring council's summer camp due to a bear attack.  It wasn't any mass attack from a lone crazed killer, but an accumulation of events that indicated to me I had better do a better job of being prepared.  I don't carry a gun on scout activities, but would if the powers that are wouldn't restrict my preparedness efforts.  Sheath knife (carried on a belt), duct tape (carried in my first aid kit) and 6' closet rod (carried in my hands) do allow for a limited ability to do my best to due my duty as a SM.  Have I ever had to use any of these?  Well a 6' walking stick with a hook in the end can safely pick up a coiled rattlesnake and gently toss him off the trail.    It's old technology, but if I have to shepherd a bunch of young boys out into the world, the rod and staff is better than nothing.  So, yes, in fact I do carry weapons on scout outings.  

[Sentinel947]

I don't carry firearms when camping, either with the Troop or when I go myself. Generally I don't carry large knives either. I weigh the difference of being prepared, versus the likelihood of the event in question happening. Especially while backpacking, the weapon wouldn't even be accessible to me, and I wouldn't get the chance to use it even in the extremely unlikely scenario that I needed it. 

 

There's an average of three bear fatalities in the US and Canada a year. Millions of people go out in the woods every year. I don't live in bear country, and take maybe a trip every other year that is in bear country. I've carried bear spray once, in Grand Tetons NP. 

In my two Philmont treks, once as a youth (crew leader), once as an Adult (lead adviser), I've insisted on bear protocol be followed to the letter. The result? I've spent 22 days on the trail at Philmont, and never saw a single bear. 

I don't begrudge Stosh or Krampus the need to be more prepared, especially in the back country of places out West, where the predators are a much more plentiful. 

Your mileage may vary,

Sentinel947

[Stosh]

at Philmont in 2000 when they had the 4 bear attacks, we were on the trail for 8 days and saw 3 bear.  One we watched crawl into a trap and crawl back out without tripping it.  Needless to say, we all followed bear protocol to the letter of the law.

 

15 minutes before my wife and I were to set out on a trail at Yellowstone, we were stopped by a ranger who told us the trail was just now closing due to a gentleman being killed by a grizzly within the previous half hour.  That was about an hour after we spotted two bear (one grizzly) in a different part of the park.

 

Knowing this type of information (my kids back in Wisconsin) knew the Mrs. and I were in Yellowstone, and heard about the fella being killed and called us frantically wondering if we were okay.  While I have spent a lot of time in bear country and my wife spent 25 years in Alaska part of which was working for the US Forestry Service, there are still thousands of others who watch the news and openly refuse to go any place were trees are closer together than 30'.

 

It's interesting to note that when my wife's 4 children were growing up in Alaska, they could play anywhere in the neighborhood, but if there was a bear in the neighborhood they couldn't leave the yard.  If there was a moose in the neighborhood, they had to play inside.  My wife told this story to me after we stopped at Yellowstone to see what the crowd was gathering for and as soon as she saw a moose lying down and tourists totally surrounding it taking pictures, she said, "We're outta here, NOW!"  About 2 months later a high school kid back in Alaska where she lived was killed by a moose between the school bus stop and his house less than a block away.

 

Maybe I am paranoid.  Maybe I'm just knowledgeable.  Be prepared.... your mileage may vary.

[Sentinel947]

at Philmont in 2000 when they had the 4 bear attacks, we were on the trail for 8 days and saw 3 bear.  One we watched crawl into a trap and crawl back out without tripping it.  Needless to say, we all followed bear protocol to the letter of the law.

 

15 minutes before my wife and I were to set out on a trail at Yellowstone, we were stopped by a ranger who told us the trail was just now closing due to a gentleman being killed by a grizzly within the previous half hour.  That was about an hour after we spotted two bear (one grizzly) in a different part of the park.

 

Knowing this type of information (my kids back in Wisconsin) knew the Mrs. and I were in Yellowstone, and heard about the fella being killed and called us frantically wondering if we were okay.  While I have spent a lot of time in bear country and my wife spent 25 years in Alaska part of which was working for the US Forestry Service, there are still thousands of others who watch the news and openly refuse to go any place were trees are closer together than 30'.

 

It's interesting to note that when my wife's 4 children were growing up in Alaska, they could play anywhere in the neighborhood, but if there was a bear in the neighborhood they couldn't leave the yard.  If there was a moose in the neighborhood, they had to play inside.  My wife told this story to me after we stopped at Yellowstone to see what the crowd was gathering for and as soon as she saw a moose lying down and tourists totally surrounding it taking pictures, she said, "We're outta here, NOW!"  About 2 months later a high school kid back in Alaska where she lived was killed by a moose between the school bus stop and his house less than a block away.

 

Maybe I am paranoid.  Maybe I'm just knowledgeable.  Be prepared.... your mileage may vary.

You definitely are knowledgeable. I think you may have missed my point. Here's my reasoning.

• Lightning and Dogs kill far more people yearly than Bear attacks. 

It would stand to reason that there many more dog attacks than bear attacks, since dogs are more common than bears. Considering that a bear is a stronger, more lethal animal than the average dog, bears should kill a higher number of bear attack victims than dogs kill dog attack victims. Therefore it would make more sense to carry a defensive option on your evening walk with the Wife, or during your next visit to the city, in order to be prepared in the event of dog attacks since they are far more likely to happen, even if each canine-homo sapiens interaction is less likely to be lethal. 

 

You are certainly a more experienced outdoorsman than I am.

• Like you do, I take precautions in bear country and follow bear protocol in order to lessen the chances I will encounter a bear.

Knowing that I've done everything possible to make a bear encounter as unlikely as I can, I deem carrying a weapon able to fight a bear unfeasible. The chances are so remote, and carrying such a weapon so cumbersome(and in some places illegal,) that it doesn't make sense for me.

 

Local situations, individual knowledge and experience. I may be victim to a bear attack, and know in my final moments "****, Stosh was right." I could change my mind, bring a weapon, get cornered by a bear, fight and lose, even with a weapon. I could also bring the weapon, and not have access to it at the right time, and get mauled anyways. I could also fight off a bear a win. That's probably the least likely scenario. If I get in a throw down with mama Grizzly, she's a far better killer than I can ever be. 

 

There is one last scenario, and that's where I don't bring a weapon, I follow bear procedures, I don't see a bear, and If I do, I do the usual things one is supposed to do when confronted by a bear, and I live. This is the most statistically likely outcome of a bear human encounter. 

 

There's a chance right now, sitting in urban Cincinnati Ohio, that I could be the victim of terrorism or gang related shootings. I don't wear a bulletproof vest every day because I weigh the statistical likelihood of those events happening around me versus the cost and inconvenience of wearing a bullet proof vest every day. I view weapons in the back country in a similar way. There are definitely places where it might be appropriate, (as there are some situations and places in the US where wearing a vest would be helpful.) but for most people in most situations, it's just unnecessary. 

 

Anything is possible. But we can't be completely prepared for every possible scenario we may ever encounter in life. We minimize our risks, and improvise if something goes south, and let the chips fall where they may. 

 

Sentinel947

Edited January 25, 2016 by Sentinel947

[Krampus]

There may only be on average three bear fatalities are year, HOWEVER, there are HUNDREDS of bear attacks every year. Bear protocols should ALWAYS be followed in the back country, and not just because of bears but also coyotes, pumas/cougars (the four-legged kind) and all other types of varmints (yes, we still call them that in the Lone Star state).

 

If you are ever in AK I'd recommend packing. Those bears are everywhere and if you are not a local you don't know where or when they will pop up. Bear spray just makes you a giant Habanaro. A shot gun at least gives you a fighting chance.