Breaking Bad ... Scouters

[TAHAWK]

The point is that, in many police organizations, one is "on call" 24/7.

 

I know you like your culture.  I do not feel entitled to judge your culture as you feel free to judge ours.  

 

Those who fought off the government of the UK and formed this nation wanted something different.  For example, our founders held that being stopped and having to explain oneself to an agent of the state without probable cause was against fundamental law.  That right is recognized, although not created, by the 4th Amendment to our Constitution. The Second Amendment, of course, recognizes the fundamental right of the people to keep and bear weapons.  As we regard these rights as common to all mankind, we feel you also have those rights. 

 

As for "madness," in late 1940, my Mom's dad, like many thousands of other Americans, donated a weapon - a .30 cal.Springfield rifle in his case - to the UK to help overcome the lack of weapons to deal with Germany. When the war was over, almost all of these donated weapons were dumped in the ocean.  Knowing that, Grandpa said he would have done it again under that same circumstances.  And he still had a military rifle to give, the Model 1917 he carried in combat in France.

 

With respect, Churchill was wrong.  More than a "common language" divides us.

[cyclops]

Stosh, I guess your statistical comparison translates to 'zero' mass-murdering psychos in scout camp dining halls for all of history. Yes, no?

 

Anyway, when I revived the Concealed Carry thread in response to a previous request, I was stunned to see that it not only was IN the Program forum, but had remained there after a lively discussion.

Edited January 19, 2016 by cyclops

[Stosh]

Well I haven't heard of any yet.  Haven't listened to the news today.  But I have broken up serious knife fights at summer camp in the past.  I'm sure none of them made a big enough impact on the national level, but it surely got a lot of people riled up on the council level.  I did hear about the Eagle scout that had a 1" knife in his survival kit in the trunk of his car on school property and was expelled from school for 12 days. 

 

The world has changed.  In high school I was on the rifle team and had my gun stored in my locker on the days it was needed.

 

So look into your crystal ball and tell me it isn't going to be a statistic some day.  When it does I dearly hope some scouter is breaking the rules and stops it before it turns into something that'll make national news.

[TAHAWK]

 

 

osted on 5/20/2010, 4:05:26 PM by afraidfortherepublic

Matthew Whalen's suspension will stand.

 

On Wednesday night, the Lansingburgh Central School District board of education rejected Whalen's appeal of the punishment and decided not to expunge the blemish on the record of the Eagle Scout suspended for having a pocketknife in his car while the vehicle was on the grounds of Lansingburgh High School. Whalen received a 20-day suspension in September after he turned over to school administrators a 1 1/2-inch knife that he kept in his glove box as part of a car survival kit. He returned to school in October.

 

Whalen has said he does not know how school officials learned he had a pocketknife in his car, but suspects another student may have tipped off administrators in an attempt to pull a prank on him.

 

School officials, who did not respond to requests for comment, have said Whalen violated the school district's zero-tolerance policy because he brought a weapon on to school grounds and that the suspension was an appropriate response. The case raised national furor when Whalen went on two separate national Fox News programs to discuss the penalty. He worried that the action could hurt his chances of getting into West Point.

 

He said he never realized the school considered the keychain knife a weapon. He said his grandfather Robert Whalen -- who recently retired as police chief of the Hoosic Falls Police Department -- gave him the folding knife to use in his car after they used it to cut wires while installing a car radio.

 

Whalen was given a Lifesaving Heroism Award by the Boy Scouts of America at age 13 after he performed CPR on his aunt, saving her life. He said he carries water bottles, a sleeping bag and a change of clothes in his 1999 Mercury Sable in case it breaks down. He considered the key-chain knife part of that preparedness kit.

[cyclops]

RememberSchiff, In response to your request I re-started a thread on concealed carry. Hopefully anyone wanting to discuss the role of concealed carry in scouting will move their comments to the other thread. I know I will.

[Eagle94-A1]

And let's not forget the 1st grade Tiger who was suspended for bringing a spork to school. Thankfully he got a reprieve.

http://www.today.com/id/33289924/ns/today-today_news/t/boy-suspended-over-utensil-gets-reprieve/#.Vp24hlKJEjU

[Stosh]

Did some research on the subject.  A lot of of political garbage to dig through but there were a couple of good points made. 

 

1) Would BSA be liable under present policy if an armed leader could have made a difference in a situation involving serious injury to or death of one of his scouts?

 

2) Campgrounds are becoming more dangerous.  Robberies, theft are more prevalent due to soft targets and unsecured isolated locations.  And as a result, more campers are armed than ever before.  California, for example, has shown a rather significant number of armed incidents in campgrounds in recent years.  Rangers have always been law enforcement, but now they are armed and function more like police rather than camp directors.

 

3) Isolated campgrounds are becoming more popular for criminal habitation due to it's remoteness.

 

4) Scouts tend to be highly visible to the public in these situations, i.e. uniforms, flags, etc. and they are also known to be unarmed soft targets.

 

5) BSA G2SS policy for litigation purposes is in conflict with the Scout Oath and Motto.

 

I don't know how many of them I agree with or know much about, but they do bring up some points to ponder. 

[Stosh]

As far as injury to scouts are concerned.  The summer I was at Philmont there were three scouts ended up in the hospital due to bear attacks.  I know of one last summer at Philmont and a scout was killed at one of the council camps in my state a few years back.

 

How much of this could have been averted?  Even if it was just one would it have been worth it.  Scouts know they are going into hazardous areas, why are they not prepared?

 

After further research, I stand corrected, there were 4 bear attacks in one month that summer at Philmont (2000).

Edited January 19, 2016 by Stosh

[Krampus]

What are the statistics on psychos trying to commit mass murder at scout camps?

 

What were the stats on guys using box cutters to kill pilots and drive planes into building?

[Stosh]

I would seriously like to know the number of deaths and injuries on scout property due to animal attacks that could have been prevented had a weapon been available.

 

I was witness to a situation at Philmont where a large group of boys were forced off the Tooth of Time in the middle of the night by a bear that wouldn't leave the campsite.  I thought that section of trail was a bit dicey in the daytime, these boys had to do it in the dark with flashlights.  Fortunately they were all safe, but they were also not prepared for such a situation even that close to base camp in a well traveled area of Philmont. 

[RememberSchiff]

While the article mentions prior arrests, it doesn't give any details (where there any convictions?). I wouldn't be surprised if the BSA background check only looks at criminal convictions. It isn't that difficult in some places to end up with an arrest on your record without doing anything wrong. Usually those end up with the victim being let loose a few hours later with a "sorry about that", but it's still on your record.

 

 I reread the Adult Application background check information

 

The consumer reports may contain information bearing on your character, general reputation, personal characteristics, and mode of living. The types of information that may be obtained include but are not limited to Social Security number verification, sex offender registry checks, criminal records checks, inmate records searches, and court records checks. The information contained in these consumer reports may be obtained by LexisNexis from public record sources.

The consumer reports will not include credit record checks or motor vehicle record checks(?)

 

This does not seem to be working for us, just Google and see arrests (abuse, porn, drugs). Assuming all the above is being done, what else could be done?

 

 Add checks of family members (including arrests)?

 Check social media accounts?  (BSA would terminate RS and some others here )

 Check browser history, email via volunteer's internet service provider ( put NSA to work)

 

OR punt. leave the background checks and liability up to the CO and respective local governments? Are teachers screened better than us?

[Peregrinator]

To me, the British firearm laws did not make sense and seemed crazy since someone could not defend oneself and family. Then I realized you did not have a revolution that permanently overthrew your king. And unfortunately I do not know enough British history to know how the Lord Protector handled firearms to retain his dictatorship.

British gun control laws are fairly recent in the grand scheme of things. Our right in the USA to keep and bear arms is a direct descendant of the right developed in English common law, which in turn was a descendant of the Anglo-Saxon militia system.

[cyclops]

What were the stats on guys using box cutters to kill pilots and drive planes into building?

Are you comparing airlines to scout dining halls? If you know of a single such attempt to commit mass murder in a scout camp dining hall, I'd like to know.

 

Stosh, given enough time almost anything becomes likely. But that was true for the entire >100 years of scouting so far as well. Did we allow mass murder in dining halls because we didn't carry concealed during that first 100 years?

During that same time (referring to the comment by Krampus) there have  been plenty of airline hijackings. And yet no one has taken over a dining hall to dive it into a skyscraper, not even a single time.

Edited January 24, 2016 by cyclops

[Stosh]

It doesn't necessarily need to meet the "mass murder" criteria in order to justify providing defense of boys in our care.  If It means saving just one life, or preventing one debilitating injury, it would be worth it.  We don't need it to rank up there with media sensationalism to qualify for prudent behavior.

 

Boy Scout camp... a boy with a candy bar in his camp provided wall tent...  in a campsite of scouts... bear enters camp smells food, knocks over the tent and before anyone could do about it, the scout is dead.    Not really a mass murder situation, but unfortunate nonetheless.  If any of the staff or scouters been armed would it have made a difference?  One boy will never know...  neither will the rest of us.

[cyclops]

I'm using the scenario set by jpstodwftexas: some psycho starts shooting up a mess hall full of boy scouts.

That is the person to whom I originally posed the question. But you and Krampus seemed to want to respond to it.