New SM not new to Scouting

[htusa31]

STOP!  You tell them  "I will help you make it happen."

 

Your PLC should be the voice of the change.  If you wanted to impose stricter uniform standards on the troop you could have used Jedi Mind Tricks and asked the PLC "What can WE do as a troop to encourage wearing of the uniform?"  and guided them to better uniforming.  As it turns out, they want more uniforming already so the same question (with out mind tricks) can be asked.

 

See what the scouts come up with.  My current troop has used a scout-originated, scout-conducted uniform inspection at the start of each meeting.  Points are tallied and a prize awarded at the end of the year.  This really helps, our scouts even wear single-badge or empty merit badge sashes since a sash adds an extra point.

 

Once they have a good idea (or Scoutmaster/Jedi Master Yoda has steered them to a good idea [while letting them think they came up with the idea and OWN it]) let them announce it to the troop.  Not you.  You should only be speaking for the 60 seconds necessary to deliver your Scoutmaster's Minute.

Noted for future use. Probably should of done that. Will from now on.

[htusa31]

Probably the best strategy to implement uniforms:

• Wear yours. Apologize to the boys if for some reason you are at a meeting out of uniform (e.g., you get stuck at work with no time to change). Teach the SPLs to do the same. Thank them when they look sharp.
• Train your SPLs in using the uniform inspection sheet, and have them put inspection night on the calendar. Pass out copies of the sheet one week. Give the PLs a chance to practice inspect/fix problems the next week. Have the SPL do overall inspection. Have some little flag-totem for the patrol with the highest average score.
• Spout off uniform trivia from time to time. (You'll find plenty of it on this forum!)

You really don't have to do inspection often. Our troop hasn't done it in years. Uniforming has its own momentum.

I like this. 

[Stosh]

Every SM has two options: filter in the boys who fit the mold he wants to stay in, or grow with his boys as he learns how to positively reinforce his vision.

 

Now, I suspect Mr. How-to-quit was just itching for a reason to oppose change. So I disagree with Stosh that the opportunity "just walked out the door."

 

Okay, I  can understand such suspicion, but that is a personal opinion drawn by some, not all are of the same suspicion.  I "suspect" differently because I've experienced situations like this that "itching for a reason" wasn't the right reason one would first suspect.

 

Whatever boundary you would have drawn, he probably would have balked.

 

Again, this is a conclusion and decision made by the SM/adult which only justifies the situation.  It reminds me of Aesop's Fable of the Fox and the Grapes.  This process of justification has been around since the dawn of time.

 

Anyway, this is where your other adults come in handy. They need to give you his back-story. Then you need to decide if and how to flex for this kid. Again, nothing any of us on this side of the Internet can do to help you with that decision. Your people, and maybe the kid's parents, can give you an honest appraisal such a boy. (Yep, there'll be more of them.)

 

Decision by adult committee.  It's interesting that none of the decision processing of this boy is not done exclusively by adults.  Not one mention of any of the boys with whom this rebellious boy will be associating with and the boy himself is never really asked why he even feels the way he does about a uniform that BSA doesn't even require. 

 

With my oppositionally defiants, I usually emphasize skills acquisition. I tell the kid that It's not about the patch, but is he able to do something this week that he couldn't do the week before.

 

Where does the boy-led, patrol-method fit into the solution to these situations?  Kinda makes one wonder if it's in place in the first place.

 

Regarding uniforms, BSA recently allowed boys to wear neckerchiefs independent of their filed uniforms. Your boys might not be interested, but it's useful to know.

 

With the official inspection sheet reference, neckerchiefs are not required at all and so to "allow" a piece of uniform that is not explicitly allowed in the first place is a rather moot point for units that have voted to not even have neckers in the first place.

This is one of the boys we're talking about here.  One of the boys that showed up on the doorstep along with a few other "unknowns".  He was interested in Scouting or he wouldn't be there in the first place.  I guess I don't see it as my place as SM to filter out the boys that I suspect probably might be a difficult boy to deal with.  Sure, I identify who those boys might be and then begin the task of finding out what it is I have to do to help this boy get the most out of scouting.  That is the other option a SM has that hasn't been considered in this situation.  The BSA program is for them, it's my responsibility to figure out how I need to deliver that program.   That's not my goal, that's my job as SM.   And maybe with less effort and focus I have to do that for every boy that walks into the program regardless of my judgment of them and their attitudes.

This makes me think of a conversation I had while I was Cubmaster, with a lady that was starting the Daisy girl scout troop that my daughter was in.  We are chartered by a catholic parish.

So this leader was new to the whole game, and she was marching under the idea that only church members could join.  Correct or not, I told her that I look at it as another ministry of the church.... an extension of the youth group program if you like.... and with this in mind, if we can get a non-member to attend scouts, they will bring their parents through the door, at least occasionally.  That family will get exposure to the church taht they wouldn't otherwise have had.  They might like what they see or who they meet through scouting and they might end up joining the church or even more coming to know Christ.

(edit: even if it's not a church, you could look at "scouts" as very similar to the church in my example.  That boy may have sorely needed some of the growth that is possible through scouting)

 

So excluding someone is an opportunity lost.

 

My point exactly,  I kinda thought it my just be my churchy background that tried to include everyone without judging them.  But you are correct in that it is an opportunity lost.

 

BUT, all that being said

I'll also bet that qwazse is spot on.

That boy probably would have left anyway sooner or later.   Probably? 

and even worse, he might have injected a bad attitude that affects others in the troop.  Might have?

SO, in that regard, perhaps its a win.  See Aesop's Fable reference above.  Don't feel bad, the reason I remember the Fox and Grapes fable is because I drink as much of the koolaide as anyone else at times.  It's a good reminder that instead of justifying it away, it's time to roll up my sleeves and get to work.

 

But is it a win or loss?  Anytime a boy doesn't get an opportunity to be a Scout, it's a loss in my book.

 

 

As for the boy that left. Yes I got his background, and pretty much what I said is what he does. His father and mom are not around and he has extreme trouble reading. He hasnt had any real structure in his life. There is more but essentially the people that raised him just let him do whatever. If he doesnt like something he leaves. Which is why he is home schooled. 

 

90% of my Venturing Crew was homeschooled.  They are not like the regimented youth of the public school system.  I for one find their uniqueness a challenge but far more productive than the public school youth.  Their proclivity towards real leadership far surpasses that of others.  If one harnesses the wind it is a fantastic opportunity.    I find it strange that the parents are not around, has trouble reading and has no structure and he's home schooled.  That doesn't add up and so I'm quite certain the whole story isn't being stated. 

 

I consider it a loss anytime a boy walks out the door, but its their decision. 

 

Not necessarily, if the "powers that be" do what it takes to force them out, then the decision has been made long before the boy "decided" the exit door was the only option left to consider.

 

 

 

Let me clear the informing them to wear a uniform or other things I have done. Im not very detailed on the reporting back. I deal with less is more at work. So my lack of details may be causing confusion in my intentions and thoughts.

 

I had a meeting with the SPL and PL before the meeting started. I asked them what they wanted to do. 

(I shut my mouth and let them tell me how they wanted to run the troop.) 

 

Were they aware of BSA policy during their deliberation?

 

They told me they feel its more a hangout, with occasional skills thrown in. They wanted it back to the way it was a couple years ago. Uniforms worn, and more fun stuff. They want to set an example of how to be a Scout. (Essentially the result of the meeting) 

 

Why does the little red flag in the back of my head that is waving frantically right now raising the suspicion that a coaching pep talk preceded the decision because the boys sound like they don't want to be a good scout troop, but the best, better than the others, the example the others are to follow?  I might be wrong, but I do fall prey to my gut feelings on occasion.

 

They also said they become tired of being ill prepared going to district campouts so they just decided to quit going.

 

I guess it's all okay for the group to exit out the door, but not individuals?  Or is this indicative of how boys of this age feel at times, especially during challenging opportunities that frustrate them instead of helping them grow.?

 

The used my uniform as an example for uniform wear.

 

But of course, the BSA inspection sheet probably wasn't handy at the moment?

 

They thought it was cool I had everything neat and tidy on it. They said the SM said not to wear them anymore so everyone stopped. They didnt feel it was right but they really were not given an option. 

 

This is just the flip side of the same adult driven coin.  Doesn't sound like in either case the boy-led option was ever fully given.

 

I told them I would make it happen.

 

Or they should have been told THEY should make it happen and left it up to them to work it out without the adults doing it for them.

 

There will be those who think that by looking at situations from various points of view is judgmental, remember, it is not the case, it is just allowing people to see that there are more than one way to skin a cat.  Regardless of which is used using a dull knife or a sharp knife, the cat gets skinned, but one way might be easier than the other.  One still retains the option of skinning cats any way they want.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Stosh

[htusa31]

Let me clear the informing them to wear a uniform or other things I have done. Im not very detailed on the reporting back. I deal with less is more at work. So my lack of details may be causing confusion in my intentions and thoughts.

 

I had a meeting with the SPL and PL before the meeting started. I asked them what they wanted to do. 

(I shut my mouth and let them tell me how they wanted to run the troop.) 

 

Were they aware of BSA policy during their deliberation?

Yes. They were told everything except the wearing of the neckerchief only. I will inform them of that change.

 

They told me they feel its more a hangout, with occasional skills thrown in. They wanted it back to the way it was a couple years ago. Uniforms worn, and more fun stuff. They want to set an example of how to be a Scout. (Essentially the result of the meeting) 

 

Why does the little red flag in the back of my head that is waving frantically right now raising the suspicion that a coaching pep talk preceded the decision because the boys sound like they don't want to be a good scout troop, but the best, better than the others, the example the others are to follow?  I might be wrong, but I do fall prey to my gut feelings on occasion.

 

If there was a pep talk before I knew nothing about it.

 

They also said they become tired of being ill prepared going to district campouts so they just decided to quit going.

 

I guess it's all okay for the group to exit out the door, but not individuals?  Or is this indicative of how boys of this age feel at times, especially during challenging opportunities that frustrate them instead of helping them grow.?

Not sure what you are asking. Let me re read this later and try to understand it. Or maybe you can clarify for me.

 

The used my uniform as an example for uniform wear.

 

But of course, the BSA inspection sheet probably wasn't handy at the moment?

 

Yes it was handed out to everybody that day. The SPL and PL got it before everyone else and had ample to time to review it. I only asked if this is something they want to do. Look it over and let me know.

 

They thought it was cool I had everything neat and tidy on it. They said the SM said not to wear them anymore so everyone stopped. They didnt feel it was right but they really were not given an option. 

 

This is just the flip side of the same adult driven coin.  Doesn't sound like in either case the boy-led option was ever fully given.

 

They are given the choice now.

 

I told them I would make it happen.

 

Or they should have been told THEY should make it happen and left it up to them to work it out without the adults doing it for them.

This will be rememdied. I should told them I would HELP them make it happen. Wrong approach.

 

There will be those who think that by looking at situations from various points of view is judgmental, remember, it is not the case, it is just allowing people to see that there are more than one way to skin a cat.  Regardless of which is used using a dull knife or a sharp knife, the cat gets skinned, but one way might be easier than the other.  One still retains the option of skinning cats any way they want.

 

Im reading and taking all suggestions into account. I am not perfect and am new at the SM thing. 

The only suggestion I am not responding to is quitting. That is not going to happen. 

Edited January 14, 2016 by htusa31

[Stosh]

 

Let me clear the informing them to wear a uniform or other things I have done. Im not very detailed on the reporting back. I deal with less is more at work. So my lack of details may be causing confusion in my intentions and thoughts.

 

I had a meeting with the SPL and PL before the meeting started. I asked them what they wanted to do. 

(I shut my mouth and let them tell me how they wanted to run the troop.) 

 

Were they aware of BSA policy during their deliberation?

Yes. They were told everything except the wearing of the neckerchief only. I will inform them of that change.

I like your style.  The boys need as many opportunities as possible.  They need to be fully informed and their decisions carefully thought out.  Keeping them 100% in the loop with full disclosure is the SM's job

 

They told me they feel its more a hangout, with occasional skills thrown in. They wanted it back to the way it was a couple years ago. Uniforms worn, and more fun stuff. They want to set an example of how to be a Scout. (Essentially the result of the meeting) 

 

Why does the little red flag in the back of my head that is waving frantically right now raising the suspicion that a coaching pep talk preceded the decision because the boys sound like they don't want to be a good scout troop, but the best, better than the others, the example the others are to follow?  I might be wrong, but I do fall prey to my gut feelings on occasion.

 

If there was a pep talk before I knew nothing about it.

There's nothing wrong with winning, it is important in sports.  Scouting isn't a sport and failure and losing are safely controlled as an opportunity for the boys to learn the hard knocks of life without being left behind in the playoffs. 

 

They also said they become tired of being ill prepared going to district campouts so they just decided to quit going.

 

I guess it's all okay for the group to exit out the door, but not individuals?  Or is this indicative of how boys of this age feel at times, especially during challenging opportunities that frustrate them instead of helping them grow.?

Not sure what you are asking. Let me re read this later and try to understand it. Or maybe you can clarify for me.

Everyone experiences frustrations and the feeling the only choice is to quit.  From a single scout walking out the door to the elderly gentleman who's considering suicide.  Everyone needs the opportunity to know and learn how to deal with life without quitting!  Scouting is this learning process and it applies to the adults as much as it does the boys.  I don't quit on a boy just because he shows evidence that the easy way out for me is to just let him walk out the door and my problem goes with him.  I can't set the example of quitting for my boys and expect them not to follow.  So we can see a boy walking out the door and quitting, but now we have a history in the troop of the whole troop quitting on the camporee issue.  "They also said they become tired of being ill prepared going to district campouts so they just decided to quit going." The problem obviously laid with them, they knew it and instead of dealing with their problem they just quit.  The tradition was set.  But going after the boy and bringing him back in, or working on preparing oneself for District campouts, or whatever is up to the boys to learn how to resolve more constructively than quitting.  By allowing such a tradition, the SM has in fact had to resolve him/herself to quitting as well.  Not a good option for a SM to be considering.  DON'T QUT!  Any option out there is better than quitting.  As SM maybe that can be one of your personal goals.  Never quit!.  Never allow the boy to walk out the door without fully understanding and knowing it 's a totally hopeless cause and the boy totally hates your guts.  Until then, don't quit. (or maybe try something else)     Seriously, some of the most emotional stories concerning my boys over the years are those where I was tempted to quit and didn't....  It's a powerful lesson in Leadership when your boys understand this.

 

The used my uniform as an example for uniform wear.

 

But of course, the BSA inspection sheet probably wasn't handy at the moment?

 

Yes it was handed out to everybody that day. The SPL and PL got it before everyone else and had ample to time to review it. I only asked if this is something they want to do. Look it over and let me know.

Again, I think it just might be your writing style that is sometimes misleading on the forum.  I'm glad they had all the resources and not just your uniform to go on. 

 

They thought it was cool I had everything neat and tidy on it. They said the SM said not to wear them anymore so everyone stopped. They didnt feel it was right but they really were not given an option. 

 

This is just the flip side of the same adult driven coin.  Doesn't sound like in either case the boy-led option was ever fully given.

 

They are given the choice now.

 

I told them I would make it happen.

 

Or they should have been told THEY should make it happen and left it up to them to work it out without the adults doing it for them.

This will be rememdied. I should told them I would HELP them make it happen. Wrong approach.

 

There will be those who think that by looking at situations from various points of view is judgmental, remember, it is not the case, it is just allowing people to see that there are more than one way to skin a cat.  Regardless of which is used using a dull knife or a sharp knife, the cat gets skinned, but one way might be easier than the other.  One still retains the option of skinning cats any way they want.

 

Im reading and taking all suggestions into account. I am not perfect and am new at the SM thing. 

The only suggestion I am not responding to is quitting. That is not going to happen. 

You are passionate,  you are dedicated to your boys, you are inquisitive, you are open to change, you refuse to quit.  Now if you can instill all those things in your boys you will be a great SM  (That is what your personal goals should look like).  Some of your boys will get the opportunity to Eagle, but that should rank way down the list of your personal goals as SM. Let the boys have the opportunity to have their own personal goals along the way, too.

 

Take care of your boys. 

 

 

[blw2]

@@Stosh wrote in red

But is it a win or loss?  Anytime a boy doesn't get an opportunity to be a Scout, it's a loss in my book.

Well that was my point in the post.  All of that probably stuff I wrote before is nothing but an acknowledgement that I "understand" another side to the "argument", and I'll acknowledge that there are very good odds that the "bad egg" could have infected others if he stuck around (in fact in might already have... or not).  

I wasn't trying to say that I think it was a win.

[Stosh]

@@Stosh wrote in red

But is it a win or loss?  Anytime a boy doesn't get an opportunity to be a Scout, it's a loss in my book.

Well that was my point in the post.  All of that probably stuff I wrote before is nothing but an acknowledgement that I "understand" another side to the "argument", and I'll acknowledge that there are very good odds that the "bad egg" could have infected others if he stuck around (in fact in might already have... or not).  

I wasn't trying to say that I think it was a win.

You are on the right track blw2, but I hear a lot of chatter on this forum indicating a bad apple will ruin the whole bushel.  If I really believed that I would no longer bother with trying to help those that need it the most.  Some of my best scouts started out with bad apple attitudes.  But once channeled, the boys were a lot happier with what they became of themselves and would be the first to admit it.

 

Even then some of my quiet boys who are "bullied" and taken advantage of by the other scouts often times turn into very effective leaders because they know what being on the bottom is all about and scouting is their chance to protect those around them that are getting the same treatment.  Ever wonder why the patrol of "losers" doesn't stay that for long?

 

As SM I have a responsibility to evaluate (yes judge) each boy to determine what it is he needs to be successful in scouting.  That's kinda why I like the NSP because I get an early glimpse of how they relate directly with their peers without the dynamics of older boy's management routines.  Which boys stand out, which stand back, etc.  Who have natural leadership, who organizes the best, who serves others, who's looking out for themselves.  All these indicators allows me to mentally formulate what opportunities are going to be needed for them to be better than what they are and hope to become.

 

Like 18 year olds going off to college and getting their first taste of independence?  Yeah, we all know how that works out for a lot of young people.  But what if we could push that "time table" 7 years earlier in their lives and start the process of growth at a younger age.  The sudden impact of turning 18 won't hit them as hard because they have "been there, done that" already and worked the kinks out in a safe environment.  To me that's the real opportunity of Scouting.  No other youth program expects that as its primary goal.  If it so happens that the star of the football team some how steps up and leads his team to victories, are the accolades bestowed on him for him or for his team?  Did he do it for them or for himself.  In scouting if one is following the principle of "take care of your boys", every great PL will know that he is a great PL because all his boys in his patrol are great too.  The boys in the patrol also will come to realize that they will be great scouts because they worked at taking care of their PL, too.

[qwazse]

I'll agree with Stosh that Mr. ho-to-quit, as described, is not a bad apple. Boys and their little insurrections rarely amount to much.

I disagree that the protest could have been averted. New SM is bound to do something that'll light the fuse.

As to what to do next ... Contact the boy ... Ask SPL or PL or buddy to do it ... Contact parents ... Have a committee member or old SM do it ... Those decisions are best settled on with the help of caring adults until the new SM grows a "gut feel" for his scouts.

 

I'm sorry, but a bunch of old farts on the Internet do not qualify as caring adults!

[Stosh]

"I'm sorry, but a bunch of old farts on the Internet do not qualify as caring adults!"

 

We don't know the boy, the new SM doesn't really know the boy, but there are those in the unit who do.  Qwazse is correct, get someone who knows the boy and the boy trusts and have them reach out to him.  If he returns, the new SM needs to be the first to welcome him back.

 

We may not qualify as caring adults, but we care enough to help each other with issues in the different groups of boys we work with.  Nobody wants anyone to fail, especially when they are just starting out and getting their feet wet.

 

As I have mentioned in other posts here, I have had boys walk out on me, only to return and go on to get their Eagle.  All is not lost.  Don't quit!

[blw2]

I think you guys might have misunderstood again what I was trying to get at.

I'm 100% in agreement with what you are saying

I don't think it was a win.... means that I think it was a lost opportunity

 

I do think that it's possible and arguably likely that a bad attitude is contagious. But I also agree with you guys that it probably wouldn't amount to much.... I might add unless it's not addressed.... and I don't mean addressed by discipline, but by the bringing out the good in the boy, as you guys are getting at....

[MattR]

There are different reasons why scouts are unhappy and leave. If it's ever a power struggle with dad I've never been able to come up with anything that will bring the scout back, and yes, those scouts can really bring things down. At the same time, plenty of other scouts that have been stagnating and not really getting anywhere are the easiest to turn around. For them, it's not that they don't like scouts, it's more that they haven't figured it out yet. Another issue is how much time do you have to spend with a scout. I'll try with any scout but after 3 years of getting nowhere it's time to cut my losses.