New SM not new to Scouting

[htusa31]

You came to the realization that "parents suck...?" 

 

You may feel a little differently when your son or daughter experiences some kind of issue with a coach, teacher, scout leader, etc. 

Doubt it as I do not live through my children. I live to help them understand life.

It is the coach/leaders job to lead. I am there to supportive/helpful, not criticize every move they make.

[Krampus]

Doubt it as I do not live through my children. I live to help them understand life.

It is the coach/leaders job to lead. I am there to supportive/helpful, not criticize every move they make.

 

You don't have to live through your children in order to step in at times to show them how to managed an unreasonable coach, teacher or adult.

 

There are many things which come with age. Wisdom is one of them. I knew it all when I was your age too....until I got older and realized I didn't.

[htusa31]

You don't have to live through your children in order to step in at times to show them how to managed an unreasonable coach, teacher or adult.

 

There are many things which come with age. Wisdom is one of them. I knew it all when I was your age too....until I got older and realized I didn't.

Oh I dont know it all. I know a few things but not everything. Ill seen a lot of crap a lot of people my age should never have to see. 

 

As for managing an unreasonable leader you are right, when they become of maturity, it will be the kids job to handle it. 

But doing it publicly and in front of others is not the way. Criticizing the leader and badmouthing them all the time is not the way.

Sitting down behind closed doors and hashing out the issues are the proper way. Go at the source not around it.

[perdidochas]

Hi htusa, welcome to the place of ideas and imagination.

 

Please don't take this wrong, but I was hard headed and learned how to work with boys by doing more things wrong than I did right. Honestly, I cringe when I look back at myself. I think most of us do.

 

You aren't ready. If you haven't yet developed the skills to get the desired response from parents without using a condescending approach, you haven't grown enough yet to build a team of parents willing to support you in the most difficult times. The objective of sports is simple. But in the deep woods of values and ideals, the methods of the scouting program today can be a hard sell. Much of the time parents may not understand the program, but they will trust the leader. Parents have a good feel for character and if the adult who is working close with their son is comfortable freely talking down to adults, how much easier would he be talking down to their son? The principle of scouting is guiding scouts to make good decisions based from the values of the Oath and Law. There is nothing scout like in being condescending.

 

Barry

 

Exactly.  Htusa, most of us talking have been the father of little ones and have watched them grow.  I know if my Webelos sons (now both Eagles) had walked into a Troop where the Scoutmaster said "Parents suck", I would run away from that troop, especially if the Scouts heard that.  To me, that sounds like the first sign of a child molester who is trying to undermine me from my sons, or that the SM is an egomaniac.  Neither is appropriate, IMHO. 

 

The other is you've got young kids who need a lot of time.  Being an SM takes a lot of time.  Being a fairly new husband takes a lot of time. Having a job takes a lot of time. You can't do all of those well.  I know you are set to do this, and I wish you well, but unfortunately, I can't predict a good outcome from this. 

[perdidochas]

I have been wanting to get back into the woods for a few years now. Wife is not a big camper. I used to do the highland games but those are only me involved. Scouts will allow me to interact more with the kids. Much less travel and more time at home in general.

As for the condescending approach. You don't understand why I have that speech. Its there for a reason and it works. I have more respect from parents with that approach than being shy and quiet about it. I'm upfront honest from the start. It puts their expectations in check, that they are the parent and are welcome to help but they are not the primary reason I'm here. I'm here for the kids and to help them not stroke a parents ego. Its about the kids and kids only.

 

It's called teamwork.  Scouting is not like being a coach on the soccer team, as you should know.  A soccer coach pretty much dictates what is done. A SM guides the boys into dictating what is done.  Much different focus.  Parents are necessary--if nothing else, you have to have a parent buy-in to get the kids rides to scouts, to drive on campouts, etc. Irritate the parents too much, and they will stop driving Jr. to Scouts.  The better alternative is to recruit parents to help you in your goals, and give them jobs so they stay out of the boys' way.  My troop had a SM who thought he could do it all.  The Troop slowly dwindled.  Then we started the team approach, and we've gone from a troop that camped in the same 5 or 6 places ten times a year, to a troop that in the last 18 months has gone caving, backpacking, kayaking, is about to go swimming with the manatees, and sailing.  Why? Teamwork.

[perdidochas]

That attitude would turn me off and you would have one less boy in your troop. Why would I leave him with someone that doesn't respect me - so he can pick up that attitude? And I wouldn't want to volunteer my time to be associated with someone that projects that attitude either.

I get that parents can present issues, but your speech is a complete turnoff. But you're young and hopefully you will learn.

Good luck.

Exactly.  Being a soccer coach isn't the same as being a Scoutmaster. 

[perdidochas]

Thanks Stosh and blw2. I'm not going anywhere. The heat I can handle.

If the kids can't be coached by a tough coach, then the real world will be interesting.

For those who don't like my attitude that's fine. I've been hated by worse.

I'm just a no bull shoot you straight kinda guy. I walked on eggshells for years and I'll never do that again.

I'm a heck of a moviator. A prior manager told me I could sell ice to Eskimos.

I've been known to get change where change was needed. So I'm not worried about getting the job done.

So let's move along to the reason why I started this thread.

Any suggestions on being a SM?

Fundraising ideas?

Other than don't do it and my attitude sucks. You only judge me from a few comments so Ill ignore that fact.

 

Suggestions on being a Scoutmaster--be laid back. The boys don't need a tough coach. They need a Scoutmaster that trains them and trusts them to lead.  No offense, but the skillset for a soccer coach and scoutmaster are different.  I was a mediocre soccer coach, but am a pretty good scout leader.  Why?  I trust the kids and let them lead.  I sit back and make sure nobody's seriously hurt, and intervene minimally.  Think about it.  Your young son doesn't need an active dad today, but he will in about a year or so.

 

Fundraising ideas--intensive popcorn sales. 

[perdidochas]

Oh I dont know it all. I know a few things but not everything. Ill seen a lot of crap a lot of people my age should never have to see. 

 

As for managing an unreasonable leader you are right, when they become of maturity, it will be the kids job to handle it. 

But doing it publicly and in front of others is not the way. Criticizing the leader and badmouthing them all the time is not the way.

Sitting down behind closed doors and hashing out the issues are the proper way. Go at the source not around it.

 

You don't know much until you have your first "papa bear" moment.  My sons had a teacher like you.  Very gungho with young kids.  My wife told her that her attitude woudl change when her kids were in school. The teacher later told her she was right.  Your priority should be your family.  I know you don't want to hear it, but that's what you get for posting stuff on the internet :-)

[Stosh]

 

  Here's where we differ....

 

As for the Coach to SM, they have differences yes to the untrained eye.

 

Nope, even the untrained eye of a 6th grader can tell immediately the differences.

 

While I was a coach I just wasn't a coach I was leader/guide. Teaching them that soccer can be a stepping stone to getting ahead in life. I had probably 45% of my boys get college scholarships for soccer. (partial or full) My first kids are now graduating. Some have went on to Masters, the others are getting well paying jobs.

I was also teaching them that soccer is a job, if you want to be good at that job give me 100% all the time. Same applies to work, give 100% all the time and the rewards will be bountiful.

 

But the coach was leading, the athletes were merely following along according to the rules.  They got really good at following the rules and applied it to the world around them.  But they were still just following the rules of what people say make them successful.  Every team follower will be endeared to their coach for just that reason.

 

Same goes for being a SM, the goal in scouts is getting the Eagle rank, but its not the end goal. The end goal is learning about and how to handle life on your own. Whether that is a job welding, running your own business, or savings someone life. Scouts teaching you how to handle those things and how to grasp life and make it your own.

 

Unfortunately that isn't the case.  Every "goal" mentioned here is for the individual.  Not one of them entails any sort of others following them.  Leaders need followers.    Scouting produces leaders and every scout is taught to lead.  On a team, that's not the case.  One usually leads and the others follow along in harmony to produce a team effort.   Coach calls the plays, the players follow the rules of that play.  None of them have to be a leader, they just have to follow the playbook.  Following the rule book isn't leadership.

 

Consider for a moment the possibility that the water boy is the true leader.  (Okay,  quit snickering.  )  If it wasn't for the water boy taking care of the players, how many of the players would be able to finish the game?  If he is keeping the players on their feet throughout the game, isn't he contributing more than any single player?  If one figures out how that works, they will begin to see what a SM is teaching his boys about leadership.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Stosh

[qwazse]

Same goes for being a SM, the goal in scouts is getting the Eagle rank, but its not the end goal. The end goal is learning about and how to handle life on your own. Whether that is a job welding, running your own business, or savings someone life. Scouts teaching you how to handle those things and how to grasp life and make it your own.

This is where your view as a scout and your view as an SM must change: the goal in scouts is not Eagle rank. That was just your personal goal. The goal is to be a first class scout (the concept, not the patch). That's what you're calling the "end goal." That's why there are no time requirements on First Class rank anymore. It might take a fella 5 years to make second class, and one month to finish 1st. First class scouts get caught up in all sorts of things ... Travel, service projects, positions of responsibility, merit badges, all manner of activities in other programs .... only a few of them will balance it all to earn Eagle. But all of them will be accomplished scouts.

[htusa31]

Had my first meeting last night. 

Things went great. 

 

Scouts were eager and ready to go. Parents were very receptive. (especially since a few were from soccer). They were the first to volunteer any and everything I need. We have a few fundraisers already planned out ready to go. Just have to get final approval.

We started preparing for the district camp out next month. I have a final meeting on the camp out, Thursday with the district. 

I did sit down with each scout as I get to know you meeting. We went over their accomplishments, and set some not easy but not unreachable goals in ranking up. I have a few that are up for their board, so thats being scheduled here soon.

Also went over the OA and planned on doing elections but ending up pushing it off to next week. Same went for troop elections. We pushed them off so they could think about who they want in each position.

 

After the next fundraiser we will talk about our summer trip and see where they want to go. I told them to think about a few places. Yorktown, backpacking part of the Appalachian Trail, camping for a few days and doing a merit badge/quick summer camp. 

If they chose to backpack, we will have to take a test run trip before the end of school to make sure we are ready to go.

Edited January 12, 2016 by htusa31

[Krampus]

@@Stosh and @@qwazse are correct. The goal of scouting in individual growth and development. This is supported by the BSA Mission Statement: "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law." 

 

Eagle is a means to the end. If less than 10% of scouts make Eagle, and your primary objective is to get the to Eagle, you are failing to reach and affect 90% of the boys in your program. Just sayin'.

[htusa31]

The goal is Eagle, with learning a few usable like skills along the way. If we reach Eagle great if not then do not hang your head. Smile that you experienced something great, and you learned some useful life skills along the way.

 

I will not churn out Eagle scouts just because that is what the main goal is. We will earn our ranking and our positions. Nothing is handed out, it is earned through hard work. 

 

I did find out, the troop quit going to district camp outs because they were being competitive in any of the events. They were getting discouraged and figured why bother trying, the troop was turning into a churn out Eagles as fast as you can. 

This was not the way I taught. When we went to district camp outs, we went for the camping and to get in the outdoors.  In reality we went to have fun, learn about comradery, and to full fill some scouting requirements.

We also had to earn our rankings and they just were not given to you. For instance, the cooking requirement requires a scout to assist is preparing a meal. Having a scout flip a burger, is not assisting in preparing a meal. We all know what it means, but using it in that context is fulfilling the requirement but it doesnt teach anything to the scout. 

[Stosh]

The goal is Eagle, with learning a few usable like skills along the way. If we reach Eagle great if not then do not hang your head. Smile that you experienced something great, and you learned some useful life skills along the way.

 

I will not churn out Eagle scouts just because that is what the main goal is. We will earn our ranking and our positions. Nothing is handed out, it is earned through hard work. 

 

I did find out, the troop quit going to district camp outs because they were being competitive in any of the events. They were getting discouraged and figured why bother trying, the troop was turning into a churn out Eagles as fast as you can. 

This was not the way I taught. When we went to district camp outs, we went for the camping and to get in the outdoors.  In reality we went to have fun, learn about comradery, and to full fill some scouting requirements.

We also had to earn our rankings and they just were not given to you. For instance, the cooking requirement requires a scout to assist is preparing a meal. Having a scout flip a burger, is not assisting in preparing a meal. We all know what it means, but using it in that context is fulfilling the requirement but it doesnt teach anything to the scout. 

 

I do think you have PART of the issue identified and identified quite well.  But there is another PART that often times goes unfulfilled.  Earning Eagle, fulfilling the requirements, following the rules, organizes activities, runs a patrol, are all real-life, adult skills that they will use later in life, and for the most part, be quite successful.  However, there's more to scouting than just earning rank and learning skills. 

 

There have been thousands of psychological studies along the lines of Pavlov's theories on behavioral modification.  This basically means if the reward is great enough and often enough the test subject will do anything to get it.  Whereas Pavlov's dog would start to drool when it heard the bell knowing it was going to get a treat, excited the dog.  Is that all there is to it for getting to the Eagle rank?  Do this and you're one step closer, do the next step, closer yet.  But the only reason one is doing any of the steps is to simply get the treat at the end of the test.  Schools are set up this way.  You get the right answer, you get a better grade, etc.  But in the long run, all one has taught the person (or dog) is that if one were to simply follow the rules, one is going to be successful in life.

 

So I ask the question: Is following the rules for self gain really leadership?  Is a good manager always a good leader?  My dog can do all kinds of things on command and will do them consistently, especially if I have a treat in my hand.  Is this the goal of the Eagle?  The bling and recognition for self accomplishment?  Are the younger scouts looking to him as an example of greatness, or are they "following" him on the path prescribed by the BSA so they can get the same treat as well?  Understanding this is how I distinguish between a Paper Eagle and a Real Eagle.  The Paper Eagle can easily be identified by a solid knowledge base of skill, able to manage tasks quite well, and is recognized by certain measurable standards set forth by the program.  Basically they are accomplished in life because of what they are.  A real Eagle has pretty much all these skills, but has one added component.  He didn't do it just for himself, he did it under a different kind of measurement.  Instead of measuring just the depth of his knowledge and skill, it also means a measurement of his heart and character.  One doesn't necessarily see that spelled out specifically in BSA literature, but one knows it when they see it.  It's not a measurement of what they can do, but a measurement of who they are.

 

As the SM there's an obligation to assist each boy in defining that within them.  Once one takes off the Eagle hat and puts on the SM hat, the world no longer revolves around oneself, it revolves around the boys that come into that troop.  The biggest pain-in-the-butt disruptive scout is a higher priority than oneself.  Your Eagle means absolutely nothing, but your character and heart wanting to help others means everything.  I have seen Real Eagle SM's that do a fantastic job in the troop, I have seen Paper Eagles that never step up and help ever again.    I have seen Paper Eagles do very well in the business world, but can't keep their family together.  I have seen boys who were in the program for many years, maybe make it beyond FC to Star or Life go on to be great fathers, husbands, community members, and do very well at their jobs, and it had nothing to do with their rank in scouting.  Eagle is just a rank in scouting.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Stosh

[Krampus]

The goal is Eagle, with learning a few usable like skills along the way. If we reach Eagle great if not then do not hang your head. Smile that you experienced something great, and you learned some useful life skills along the way.

Who says the goal is Eagle? Not national. They say as much in their mission statement. I think we all agree that scouts should learn along the way (development) and to have fun (growth), but no one I know here thinks the goal of scouting is making Eagle.

 

I will not churn out Eagle scouts just because that is what the main goal is. We will earn our ranking and our positions. Nothing is handed out, it is earned through hard work.

I think we would all agree.

 

I did find out, the troop quit going to district camp outs because they were being competitive in any of the events. They were getting discouraged and figured why bother trying, the troop was turning into a churn out Eagles as fast as you can.

My unit (and my cousin's unit to a greater extent) experienced the same thing. We are not an Eagle mill. We focus on fun, growth and development. Rank advancement is a means to that end, not the end in and of itself.

 

We also had to earn our rankings and they just were not given to you. For instance, the cooking requirement requires a scout to assist is preparing a meal. Having a scout flip a burger, is not assisting in preparing a meal. We all know what it means, but using it in that context is fulfilling the requirement but it doesnt teach anything to the scout.

I agree. Be prepared to have some helicopter (or lawn mower) parents challenge you on that.