New request - parent MB counsel 1 non-Eagle mb to son w/o being a MBC

[blw2]

idk, seems like a lot of all-or-nothing short-term thinking going on.  If these parents were once active and are just burned out, why push them out the door with paperwork they aren't willing to do in order to volunteer their time?  What if working on a merit badge with their son is the thing that keeps the door ajar, helps them remember why they like the program, and ultimately brings them back into the fold?  

 

How many great MBC's and/or Venturing Consultants are our kids missing out on because we require them to be registered members of the BSA?  Seems like there are other ways to handle this.

Just based on my one experience, I might argue that it's not good to keep a burned out scouter's foot in the door.  The negative attitudes and such can be a problem....  I'd say it might be better to let them get some good distance from scouts for a while before trying to bring them back.

 

All: Remember their viewpoint and expectations coming from Cub Scouts. They are seeing the same basic methods suddenly become more complicated. Add to that by this time, these parents have been exposed to other youth organizations - sports, church, schools (our competition) that are less complicated. Thanks for your feedback.

 

blw2: How successful have you been in registering talented MBC's from the outside (those who have no related boys in scouting)?

 

 

None, Mr Smarty Pants.....  

I can imagine though that it would be tough on several levels..... the necessary hoop jumping, while really not a big deal, is certainly one of them.  I'd bet that the bigger issue is the unknown about what is expected of them.... how much time is it going to take?  How well behaved are these kids I'll be working with?  What level of effort is this going to require?, What personal or professional risk am I taking in doing this?, etc...

 

....But the OP wasn't talking about recruiting "from the outside".... they were talking about experienced scouters.

[walk in the woods]

I suspect the reason is that the BSA does not want to be involved in any way with adults working with youth without those adults having had a criminal background check and Youth Protection Training. And the document the BSA uses to get the person's consent to the background check is the Adult Application. I suppose they could create a new form that asks for only the information needed to do the background check, but that probably overlaps a lot with the information on the Adult Application, so why bother with another form?

I get that but it's a blanket policy designed to protect the corporation instead of serve the scouts.  If my unit is chartered by the local volunteer fireman's association, and I'm willing to be present to be the YPT monitor, why would the officers need to be registered scouters to hold a Fire Safety MB event or for the EMTs/Paramedics to hold a First Aid event?  If two sets of parents are comfortable with their sons working on Family Life MB with their local pastor why does the pastor need to be registered?  Local Legion Commander working on citizenship?  Local high school biology teacher working on environmental science?  Any number of examples.  Ultimately I suppose I'm arguing for the corporation to trust local leadership and parents to work together to protect the kids in their charge.

[qwazse]

I get that but it's a blanket policy designed to protect the corporation instead of serve the scouts.  If my unit is chartered by the local volunteer fireman's association, and I'm willing to be present to be the YPT monitor, why would the officers need to be registered scouters to hold a Fire Safety MB event or for the EMTs/Paramedics to hold a First Aid event?  If two sets of parents are comfortable with their sons working on Family Life MB with their local pastor why does the pastor need to be registered?  Local Legion Commander working on citizenship?  Local high school biology teacher working on environmental science?  Any number of examples.  Ultimately I suppose I'm arguing for the corporation to trust local leadership and parents to work together to protect the kids in their charge.

I think you read (or someone read for you) a little bit more into the YPT. You could certainly have the event with demonstrators who have not taken YPT. They just can't sign off as counselors without district's approval.

 

Unfortunately, if there is a charge of an actionable offense, the plaintiff's lawyers won't just go after the offender. They will go after anyone who hasn't performed due diligence in screening him/her. (And they will target the biggest pocket!)

 

We all trust our people ... until one of them hurts a kid. Then we trust nobody.

[Hedgehog]

hedgehog: Your son had you as his MBC for THREE Eagle required merit badges? That what be questioned at our district EBOR.

 

Interesting.  I'm curious what the basis is for question would be.

 

The Guide to Advancement places the decision on the number of merit badges earned from a particular counselor on the SM.  

 

7.01.01 - The National Council does not place a limit on the number of merit badges a youth may earn from one counselor. However, in situations where a Scout is earning a large number of badges from just one counselor, the unit leader is permitted to place a limit on the number of merit badges that may be earned from one counselor, as long as the same limit applies to all Scouts in the unit. Approved counselors may work with and pass any member, including their own son, ward, or relative. Nevertheless, we often teach young people the importance of broadening horizons. Scouts meeting with counselors beyond their families and beyond even their own units are doing that. They will benefit from the perspectives of many “teachers†and will learn more as a result. They should be encouraged to reach out. 

 

 

 

Our SM's rule is you can't just be a counselor for your own kid, you have to do it for everyone in the Troop and you are encouraged to do it for other troops in the District.  By the time my son goes up for Eagle, I will have probably counseled 30 scouts in Cooking, 15 scouts in Camping and 20 scouts in Family Life.  If they don't question it for the other guys that have all three of those badges from me as a counselor, they can't question it for my son.

 

If there is a concern about whether he met the requirements, he will be the first to tell them that I didn't cut him any breaks -- actually, he would probably throw me under the bus for holding him to a higher standard of knowledge. For Camping, by the time he has an EBOR, he will have camped over 150 nights and hiked over 400 miles and organized several camping and backpacking trips.  For Cooking, he has cooked for his patrol twice (including once where he grilled steaks) since completing the badge and is now working with the younger scouts in his patrol as they plan and cook menus for the T-1 requirements (because, as he put it, "I'm tired of the adults eating so much better than the scouts").  I suspect that he will be teaching the Camping and Cooking skills to the younger scouts as part of the MBs in the future and probably doing presentations on backpacking and cooking for the Counci's University of Scouting.  For Family Life, who better to learn it from than your Dad?

 

If it is a concern about lack of a variety of adult interaction, that is more of an issue with my role as ASM and the likelihood that I'll step into the SM role in the future.  Nonetheless, a week at NYLT this summer, the possibility of being a CIT in training at camp the next couple of summers, doing Jambo '17, doing at least one High Adventure program and working with the other adults in our troop (and his Eagle Advisor) should address those concerns.

[Hedgehog]

I think we're about the same rate of loss after one year from former cubs vs. non-cubs. The difference? With former cubs, it's usually the parent's decision over the boy's objection. With non-cubs, it's usually the boy's decision over the parent's objection.

 

Interesting.  I think our loss rate is around 10% (1 in 10).  If they go on a campout before the summer after crossing over, they stay.  If they don't camp with us in the first three months (April, May and June) or go to summer camp, there is a 50% chance they drop out.

[Krampus]

Paperwork which for some reason has to be redone from Cub Scout to Boy Scouts

1. Adult BSA application + $ 

2. MBC application

3. An agreement contract

4. copy of drivers license

5. Criminal Offender Record Information (Mass) form. From personal experience, this can take a long time to process.

Online

1. Youth Protection training

Classroom

1. Essentials of Merit Badge Counseling . This gets pushed by Council every so often but then they realize no instructor and not much interest.

 

I think that is all of it for our council. YMMV, particularly in PA.

 

For us, #1 and #2 can be combined into one application. #4-35 do not apply. YPT is needed for doing anything in our troop and that's also required for CS, so no added requirement. We "suggest" they take the MBC online course. Council suggests the in person course but is not required. Seems we have fewer hoops.

 

What concerns me is why you need the criminal offender information. In my state the councils does a background check that includes such information. I assume your state does not? If they do, wouldn't this be a redundant step? Couldn't they just be MBCs, forego the adult fee but complete the other steps? That would be one step less at least.

 

If they want less hassle send them my way. We will take care of them.

[RememberSchiff]

Hedgehog: Our district EBOR committee nearly asks every scout, "Tell me about your MBC's. Who were they? Who was your favorite?... Their concerns with a scout who had his parent as MBC for more than 2 (their threshold number) Eagle MBC's:

                     1. the scout's troop might be an eagle mill for one or more scouts.

                     2. Lack of adult association in troop

Sometimes a District person visits the troop or calls the SM as a follow-up. Is there any BSA rule broken? No. Does our district/council frown on this? Yes. 

 

Krampus: Well it is what it is here. In the scenario that these parents were requesting, a parent would complete a simple one page form and they were agreeable to adding a nominal administrative fee, say $5.

 

                                      New Thinking Council

                                    Parent One-Time Merit Badge Counselor Request Form

Date: 

 

I, John J. J. Schmidt request to counsel my son Jacob and only my son in the following non-Eagle merit Badge: Woodworking

 

My Experience/qualifications:

Carpenter and General Contractor for 20 years. Owner of Schmidt Construction.  

 

I agree to following before signing my son's blue card.

     ( blah, blah, blah),

 

Signed  by parent, SM, and Council.

 

 

DONE! Scout Jacob can now earn Woodworking MB with his Dad.

 

No 524-501 BSA Adult Application. No registration $

No driver license or other sensitive ID information given to who knows who which may not be securely stored.

No background check by state and council.

No YP as he/she is the scout's parent for "crying out loud".

No Essentials of MBC class

 

Seemed an interesting idea to me.

Edited January 6, 2016 by RememberSchiff

[Torchwood]

Krampus- The MA CORI form is pretty universal. It is required by State law for the background check. I can't even volunteer to help out in my kids' schools without them running a CORI on me.

 

Schiff- While these parents can do what they feel is best, I think they are copping out. I am not sure if they had diffeent expectations of the BSA program, and if so, how those expectations were not being maanged by the Troop Leadership. Going forward, you may want to have an Orientation program for new parents that directly talks about how advancement works, what the Troop expects from the parents of their Scouts, etc. We don't allow ANY parent to attend any outing without completing YPT, even if they are not otherwise registered with the BSA, but they certainly can't be a MBC without doing the paperwork. We send out an email inviting all parents to Troop Committee meetings every month, as that is how we keep the committee well rounded out. We also do run an orientation night for new Scout parents, as this helps us manage expectations and answer any questions that the parents may have on how Boy Scouts works, and is different than Cub Scouts. Also, in my son's Pack, only the WDL signed off on Webelos Advancement. This was our way of moving the parents slowly out of being responsible for this proces in advance of joining a Troop.

[Krampus]

Krampus- The MA CORI form is pretty universal. It is required by State law for the background check. I can't even volunteer to help out in my kids' schools without them running a CORI on me.

 

 

Interesting. So what does BSA use when they conduct checks? 

 

It would seem smart for BSA to use the same system the state uses. It would consolidate steps and bureaucracy. 

[RememberSchiff]

Torchwood:

From http://www.scouting.org/BSAYouthProtection/Media_Center/KnowtheFacts.aspx

 

Parents and youth are required to review Youth Protection materials as an advancement requirement.
Every Cub Scout and Boy Scout handbook includes a separate pamphlet that helps parents speak to their children about youth protection issues. Parents and youth are required to review these materials together before the child can advance in Scouting.

 

All aspects of the Scouting program are open to observation by parents and leaders.
The BSA does not allow any secret organizations as part of its program nor does it condone physical hazing or initiations as part of any Scouting activity. Parents are encouraged to attend all Scouting activities.

 

Our troop follows the above. Parents read and sign-off the YP foreword of their son's Scout Handbook. If they are not adult volunteers, they are not required to take the YP training course for our troop activities. Our troop activities are open for their observation. They can visit their scouts at summer camp, but if they want to stay overnight they must register as volunteers and hance would need YP.

 

They understand the existing advancement method but they offered this suggestion which is the topic at hand. Selfish, unreasonable, misguided, innovative? I thought it was an interesting idea to discuss.  

 

Krampus: the BSA has contracted with LexisNexis. I think it is stated on the adult application. From the above link.:

 

The BSA requires criminal background checks on all adult volunteers.
The BSA grants membership to an adult volunteer only after a national criminal background check is performed. The background checks are administered by LexisNexis, a nationally respected third party that also provides this service to local, state, and federal governments; educational institutions; and other nonprofits.

Edited January 6, 2016 by RememberSchiff

[Krampus]

 

Krampus: the BSA has contracted with LexisNexis.

 

Yup, I know that. But if a council is in a state where there is a second system used -- and they suspect the added burden of secondary confirmation is causing a drop in volunteers -- it would seem prudent to use that secondary system as part of BSA verification.

 

I know, I know, I am assuming BSA can use logic and make things easy on volunteers. Horrid assumption on my part.

[blw2]

As I'm sure most or all of you know.... as a catholic chartered unit, we go through a fingerprinting and background check as well as a separate training course.

I have no idea what they are using, but all indications are taht the background check is more extensive than what the bsa does.  One thing for sure is that the training is more intensive.

On top of that, I have some licenses and access permits that require their own background checks.

All of this duplication of effort strikes me as very inefficient.

 

Oh well, I guess it keeps those background checkers employed.....

[qwazse]

... They understand the existing advancement method but they offered this suggestion which is the topic at hand. Selfish, unreasonable, misguided, innovative? I thought it was an interesting idea to discuss.  ...

So, let's run with the thought experiment.

 

What if every parent (well, at least one for each scout) was strongly encouraged, for starters, to counsel just their boy in one MB of their choosing?

 

Pick any from the list. In fact Home Repairs allows Either a parent or the merit badge counselor may supervise the Scout's work on any Home Repairs requirements. Maybe you could ask the parent -- if he/she hasn't registered with the BSA -- to touch base with an established counselor to show him/her the ropes.

 

Might this help nurture the pool of qualified counselors?

[RememberSchiff]

So, let's run with the thought experiment.

 

What if every parent (well, at least one for each scout) was strongly encouraged, for starters, to counsel just their boy in one MB of their choosing?

 

Pick any from the list. In fact Home Repairs allows Either a parent or the merit badge counselor may supervise the Scout's work on any Home Repairs requirements. Maybe you could ask the parent -- if he/she hasn't registered with the BSA -- to touch base with an established counselor to show him/her the ropes.

 

Might this help nurture the pool of qualified counselors?

 

I would not "encourage" parents rather just inform them and their scouts. Leave it to the scout, if he is interested, to ask his parent to mentor a badge. Dad could we do Woodworking MB together?

 

At the least, I think it will provide an easy, i.e. in their comfort zone, personal and tangible Me and My Dad/Mom memory from Boy Scouts.

 

Maybe more will come from it. 

 

My $0.01

[Stosh]

It's kinda sad to think that the only time this parent can bond with his son is while doing scout requrements that he gets to sign off on.