New request - parent MB counsel 1 non-Eagle mb to son w/o being a MBC

[RememberSchiff]

@@RememberSchiff, thanks for the detail. 

 

Besides filling out yet another form to be MBC and taking a brief online training, what other obstacles did they encounter?

Paperwork which for some reason has to be redone from Cub Scout to Boy Scouts

1. Adult BSA application + $ 

2. MBC application

3. An agreement contract

4. copy of drivers license

5. Criminal Offender Record Information (Mass) form. From personal experience, this can take a long time to process.

Online

1. Youth Protection training

Classroom

1. Essentials of Merit Badge Counseling . This gets pushed by Council every so often but then they realize no instructor and not much interest.

 

I think that is all of it for our council. YMMV, particularly in PA.

[qwazse]

Paperwork which for some reason has to be redone from Cub Scout to Boy Scouts...

 

I think that is all of it for our council. YMMV, particularly in PA.

Yes, we are in a hot mess in the Keystone state! On the flip side, other activities also recognize the state clearances. So, once we have them, they go a long way.

Still it's a far cry from when a DE put a person's name on the MBC list with just a smile and a handshake.

 

However, it doesn't sound like just a paperwork phobia. It sounds like folks who've confused having a special hand in their kid's advancement with having their name signed in triplicate.

[MattR]

I never signed off on anything for my son. I did go on a lot of campouts with him. We have lots of stories to share. He even tells me things he was certain he would have gotten in trouble for. Lots of memories. I showed him a lot of skills. I still do. We still have fun working on these things. There's a difference between signing something off and teaching the skills.

 

These parents quit because they couldn't sign off on something? I think there's more going on and this is just something that they used as an excuse.

[RememberSchiff]

1. I never signed off on anything for my son. I did go on a lot of campouts with him. We have lots of stories to share. He even tells me things he was certain he would have gotten in trouble for. Lots of memories. I showed him a lot of skills. I still do. We still have fun working on these things. There's a difference between signing something off and teaching the skills.

 

2. These parents quit because they couldn't sign off on something? I think there's more going on and this is just something that they used as an excuse.

 

1, Agree as in I taught my son to swim, I taught him carpentry...My son and I worked on (earned) a arrow point/merit badge  together.

 

2. No just a request/idea they had, More a point of pride in parenting. As stated above they were expecting a more adult-run (organized) and fewer (as in one) fundraiser that they had in Cubs, not being able to sign-off on anything, particularly in their area of expertise, was something they missed from Cub Scouts. Why can't I work (counsel) one badge with my own son. I've been a (whatever) for years . What is the problem?

 

It was an idea I had not heard before and perhaps there are ideas to consider here.

 

My $0.02

Edited January 5, 2016 by RememberSchiff

[Hedgehog]

I'll admit that my involvement in the Troop is because of my son.  I want him to learn independence and to learn to be at home in the outdoors.  OK, there also is a bit of reliving my childhood by going and playing in the woods one weekend a month.

 

I've learned new skills (backpacking), relearned old skills (Camping and Hiking) and adapted other skills (gourmet cooking to camp Cooking).  I've dusted off what I learned in college (Citizenship in the Nation and World), applied what I've learned in real life (Personal Management and Family Life).  I've been the MBC for my son in a lot of those (Backpacking, Camping, Cooking and Family Life) but have been the MBC at least 50 other times for scouts in our troop and a neighboring troop.  I guess to me that is being "helpful."  On outings, I coach all the boys, including my son, on how to lead.

 

That being said, I still do things with my son.  We've done backpacking treks with just the two of us.  My son, his mom and I have camped out together everywhere from the Poconos to a beach in St. John.  We've taken vacations where we have done day hikes from 2 to 13 miles, climed mountains, gone kayaking, done confidence courses, etc.  We have a bunch of model rockets we are going to build and launch.  We got throwing knives and tomahawks and are learning how to throw them (well, throwing them is easy, hitting the target is hard).  

 

If you have a talent or skill, I think you should share it.  If you want to spend time with your son, you can do that too.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Hedgehog

[perdidochas]

We had a some families leave our troop at re-charter time last month. They had expected and wanted Boy Scouts to be similar to Cub Scouts but there was one particular complaint that has me thinking.

 

Each of these parents missed signing off on THEIR son's advancement, in particular a merit badge which related to their work or hobby. They went from 100% signoff ability to 0%! They were NOT interested in the Boy Scout hassle of becoming a MBC. They just wanted that part of Cub Scouting that was lost - I want to work on a badge with MY son and just MY son...and don't lay a guilt trip on me.

 

I want to work on Workworking/Gardening/Archery/Plumbing/Canoeing/Forestry.. MB with MY son and just MY son in my workshop/garden/outdoors. I don't want to fuss with youth protection, joining the BSA, background checks,...I just want that part of Cub Scouting that we both enjoyed to exist in some limited way in Boy Scouts.  Just ME and MY son.

 

I questioned these parents about ranks and Eagle required merit badges. They just wanted to easily work on ONE non-Eagle required badge with their son and just their son.

 

Are they being selfish or unreasonable?

Yes.

 

They can work on the MB with their son, but shouldn't sign off on it without the district approval of their application. They need to get MB counselor approved, or not sign off on MBs.  All parents should take YPT anyway. 

[blw2]

@@RememberSchiff, thanks for the detail. 

 

Besides filling out yet another form to be MBC and taking a brief online training, what other obstacles did they encounter?

 

This excuse of too much paperwork reminds me of a few folks in my unit.... the folks I came to call the "old guard".  they were leaders that went through the pack with their older sons, now leaders in a troop, and still somewhat involved in the pack as their younger sons come through.  Burnt out and wanting to get away from the pack.... but for whatever reason can't seem to let it go and stay just enough involved to cause problems.  Anyway, they sound just like your folks at least in that they have no patience for playing by the rules.  Almost anything to do with procedure, requirements, district, or council is met with a scoff and is blown off and short cutted around.

I think it sets a really bad example for the scouts, even though most of it isn't front and center to the boys, the attitude shows through and these guys hear things.

Oh how the pack could have been so much better....

 

Regardless, it really seems like a very shallow excuse to me.  None of what is required to be a MBC is difficult or even all that much time consuming.

 

I'll admit that my involvement in the Troop is because of my son.  I want him to learn independence and to learn to be at home in the outdoors.  OK, there also is a bit of reliving my childhood by going and playing in the woods one weekend a month.

 An honest answer!  thank you!!

I think a lot of scouters are afraid to admit this..... and there is nothing at all wrong with it!

Working with my son is the trigger for me to volunteer, but in working with others I'm setting all sorts of good examples for my son AND the other scouts, It helps the other boys, and is fulfilling in many ways

[perdidochas]

Paperwork which for some reason has to be redone from Cub Scout to Boy Scouts

1. Adult BSA application + $ 

2. MBC application

3. An agreement contract

4. copy of drivers license

5. Criminal Offender Record Information (Mass) form. From personal experience, this can take a long time to process.

Online

1. Youth Protection training

Classroom

1. Essentials of Merit Badge Counseling . This gets pushed by Council every so often but then they realize no instructor and not much interest.

 

I think that is all of it for our council. YMMV, particularly in PA.

 

Well, our council requires for MBCs that they fill out an adult application (no fee), and that they fill out the MBC form and take YPT. 

 

My concern with the parents is that they would help the boy "pencil whip" requirements. Also, part of the methods of BSA is Adult Association, meaning besides parents. 

[scoutldr]

As I recall there is no registration fee for MBC. Our council does require them to be registered and have YPT, however. I assume background checks are also performed. I cringe when I see kids getting all or most merit badges from the same 2-3 parents in their own troop. That's not the intent of the program.

[qwazse]

...

I think a lot of scouters are afraid to admit this..... and there is nothing at all wrong with it!

Working with my son is the trigger for me to volunteer, but in working with others I'm setting all sorts of good examples for my son AND the other scouts, It helps the other boys, and is fulfilling in many ways

I'm not admitting anything one way or the other. Mrs. Q says I used my kids as an excuse to go play in the woods. We'd all best not disagree with her. When I come back from adventurous trips (more often now in my kids' absence) she thanks the youth and younger ASMs for babysitting me!

 

I think for the parents 'schiff is dealing with, it may boil down to personal pride.It will be interesting to hear how he puts it to these parents and how they respond. They want their name somewhere on their boys' advancement. They don't realize that the price for acting like a scouter to one youth is being a scouter to all youth.

That's a heavy price, and I never grudged anyone who would not pay it. Most such folks wound up making sacrifices in other arenas for my children so it all evened out.

[walk in the woods]

idk, seems like a lot of all-or-nothing short-term thinking going on.  If these parents were once active and are just burned out, why push them out the door with paperwork they aren't willing to do in order to volunteer their time?  What if working on a merit badge with their son is the thing that keeps the door ajar, helps them remember why they like the program, and ultimately brings them back into the fold?  

 

How many great MBC's and/or Venturing Consultants are our kids missing out on because we require them to be registered members of the BSA?  Seems like there are other ways to handle this.

[RememberSchiff]

All: Remember their viewpoint and expectations coming from Cub Scouts. They are seeing the same basic methods suddenly become more complicated. Add to that by this time, these parents have been exposed to other youth organizations - sports, church, schools (our competition) that are less complicated. Thanks for your feedback.

 

hedgehog: Your son had you as his MBC for THREE Eagle required merit badges? That what be questioned at our district EBOR.

 

perdidochos: Ok, you consider them selfish and unreasonable. Parents already read the YP in scout handbook with son and often see the YP course as redundant, and redoing YP every year even more so. From what I have seen in Boy Scouts, "pencilwhippers" become registered leaders from day one. These parents just asked why they could not counsel one, non-Eagle badge so they did not impress me as pencilwhippers. But maybe they were. The Adult Assocaition method is not required of a MBC, e.g., summer camp counselors .

 

blw2: How successful have you been in registering talented MBC's from the outside (those who have no related boys in scouting)?

 

scoutldr: Agreed, I have seen that happen in a previous troop. Four families ( 8 mom and dad MBC's) allied to offer 20+ mb's for their sons and friends in accelerated fashion. Neither SM nor Council blinked. I would like to see some constraints as to number of mb's and who placed upon MBC's. Some councils do.

 

qwazse: Well, I listened to them. As said previously, their main issues were boy-run and fundraising. Their expectations were set long ago. This was just an addendum to those main issues, "And why can't we do one badge...we could all in Cubs." It seemed an interesting idea and who knows if I could have said yes, maybe I could have delayed their departure. Anyway I failed to change their expectations and decision, they left. I don't have firm data, but I think our troop's retention rate for scouts who were not Cubs is higher than for scouts who were Cubs, of course the vast majority recruited were Cubs.

 

walk-in-the-woods: I tend to agree with you. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Edited January 5, 2016 by RememberSchiff

[qwazse]

..

qwazse: Well I listened to them. As said previously, their main issues were boy-run and fundraising. Their expectations were set long ago. This was just an addendum to those main issues, "And why can't we do one badge...we could all in Cubs." It seemed an interesting idea and who knows if I could have said yes, maybe I could have delayed their departure. Anyway I failed to change their expectations and decision. They left. I don't have firm data, but I think our retention rate for scouts who were not Cubs is higher than for scouts who were Cubs, of course the vast majority recruited were Cubs. ...

I didn't understand this was a "ship has already sailed" scenario. From such parents whom I've known, I'm pretty sure you would be thrown another "straw man" in short order.

I think we're about the same rate of loss after one year from former cubs vs. non-cubs. The difference? With former cubs, it's usually the parent's decision over the boy's objection. With non-cubs, it's usually the boy's decision over the parent's objection.

[sst3rd]

qwazse,

 

 

"I think we're about the same rate of loss after one year from former cubs vs. non-cubs. The difference? With former cubs, it's usually the parent's decision over the boy's objection. With non-cubs, it's usually the boy's decision over the parent's objection."

 

Truer words have not been spoken.

 

sst3rd

[NJCubScouter]

How many great MBC's and/or Venturing Consultants are our kids missing out on because we require them to be registered members of the BSA?  Seems like there are other ways to handle this.

I suspect the reason is that the BSA does not want to be involved in any way with adults working with youth without those adults having had a criminal background check and Youth Protection Training. And the document the BSA uses to get the person's consent to the background check is the Adult Application. I suppose they could create a new form that asks for only the information needed to do the background check, but that probably overlaps a lot with the information on the Adult Application, so why bother with another form?