Boys have more fun.

Ankylus · April 7, 2017

While I am sure that a suspicion of a predatory aspect - going hand in hand with being male , is part of the unwelcoming position. I believe that a large part of it is also that part of the point of Girl Scouts is also to teach the Girls that they can do it on their own, to empower them, to know that they do not have to have a man do things for them.

So on the occasions when I have been asked to teach something to my daughter's troop (usually camping or scoutcraft related), I have always tried to be mindful of this aspect. Particularly in having the girls (or mothers) help each other whenever possible.

This was even prevalent one time when my son was asked to demonstrate setting up a tent for them, one of the girls even said "why do we need boys to show us that", which was true, since I knew that some of the girls have camped and set up tents before.

Then they better get busy and find some women who want to take the girls camping. I understand your point, but it ain't happening with the outdoor program.

Col. Flagg · April 7, 2017

I believe that a large part of it is also that part of the point of Girl Scouts is also to teach the Girls that they can do it on their own, to empower them, to know that they do not have to have a man do things for them.

And having a man involved can't help them to realize that goal?

Gee, imagine if the BSA said the goal of making men out of boys meant not having women around to impede that advancement were our narrative. The media and liberals would have a field day. But since we're just talking about "men" it's okay? C'mon. Either it's okay or not okay. It's not situational...or at least should not be.

bsaggcmom · April 8, 2017

Spring break is just finishing up in my neck of the woods. My GS troop spent it backpacking a section of the AT trail in North Carolina/Tennessee. The BSA troop did nothing. Couldn't even get a few boys out to help on a couple of Eagle Projects during the week. Girls trekked through rain, sleet, snow, then high temps and lots of mud. Boys didn't do much that I know of. A couple went on family vacations, rest were on their rumps. So I'd say my girls had more fun and bragging rights too.

BTW - 2 out of 3 of the adults on the AT were Dads hiking with their daughters. For one Dad this was his second doing an AT section with the same troop.

My troop has no issue with Dads helping out. EMT hubby and lifeguard son have taught first aid and water safety to the girls. Hubby of head leader (a card carrying lifetime GS member) has taught woodworking, knots and fire building among other things to the girls. IMHO, GSUSA doesn't have issues with men, but they'd rather women be the lead. My council even has a guy as one of its employees, in a position similar to a DE in the BSA system.

But it has been noted that I don't have a 'normal' GSUSA troop either.

Ankylus · April 8, 2017

Spring break is just finishing up in my neck of the woods. My GS troop spent it backpacking a section of the AT trail in North Carolina/Tennessee. The BSA troop did nothing. Couldn't even get a few boys out to help on a couple of Eagle Projects during the week. Girls trekked through rain, sleet, snow, then high temps and lots of mud. Boys didn't do much that I know of. A couple went on family vacations, rest were on their rumps. So I'd say my girls had more fun and bragging rights too.

BTW - 2 out of 3 of the adults on the AT were Dads hiking with their daughters. For one Dad this was his second doing an AT section with the same troop.

My troop has no issue with Dads helping out. EMT hubby and lifeguard son have taught first aid and water safety to the girls. Hubby of head leader (a card carrying lifetime GS member) has taught woodworking, knots and fire building among other things to the girls. IMHO, GSUSA doesn't have issues with men, but they'd rather women be the lead. My council even has a guy as one of its employees, in a position similar to a DE in the BSA system.

But it has been noted that I don't have a 'normal' GSUSA troop either.

I wish my daughter could have been in your troop. Thank you.

gumbymaster · April 10, 2017

And having a man involved can't help them to realize that goal?

Gee, imagine if the BSA said the goal of making men out of boys meant not having women around to impede that advancement were our narrative. The media and liberals would have a field day.

You and I both know from the I&P forums that there are many here, and in BOY scouting in general, that would subscribe to that philosophy if they could.

I prefer the concept of have an expert teach me so I can also be an expert (gender aside); the Girl scouts seem to prefer the "Proof"/example that women/girls can do it, when they teach the girls.

Col. Flagg · April 10, 2017

You and I both know from the I&P forums that there are many here, and in BOY scouting in general, that would subscribe to that philosophy if they could.

I prefer the concept of have an expert teach me so I can also be an expert (gender aside); the Girl scouts seem to prefer the "Proof"/example that women/girls can do it, when they teach the girls.

The irony that GSUSA is so overly accepting of anyone OTHER THAN heterosexual males when it comes to helping with their organization, makes their whole "acceptance" philosophy rather transparent, political and discriminatory. But when that affects a group they (GSUSA) feel are "privileged" then I guess it's okay. :rolleyes:

It just happens to be how many groups throughout antiquity have justified discrimination against people they don't like. So I'd rather they be honest about it than masquerade as some sort of enlightened group...when they're really not.

Stosh · April 11, 2017

There's a rule among these people that they are not allowed to look in any mirror. It's not that they won't reflect an image, it's because of the image that will reflect. Every time I meet people like this it always reminds me of a certain ruler's recently purchased wardrobe.

Ankylus · April 13, 2017

Stumbled across this today and thought some of our girl scouting friends might be interested. A first step in sharing program and resources:

http://www.summitbsa.org/high-adventure-girl-scout-style/

blw2 · April 13, 2017

..... I prefer the concept of have an expert teach me so I can also be an expert (gender aside); the Girl scouts seem to prefer the "Proof"/example that women/girls can do it, when they teach the girls.

YES, I really do feel like the focus is more on showing that girls can do it.

and that's not all bad, but it's not all together altruistic either....

Since I posted earlier in this old thread, my youngest is now a daisy scout and my wife the assistant troop leader. It really is a huge disconnect that my two daughters have to be in a different troop. They have different weekends at the same camp, etc...

and I'm still left with this feeling that while I'm spending this time with my son, it seems like I'm avoiding spending time with them. I hope they understand the truth....I think they do.

and on another related note,

in the book I recently finished, "Rocks in my Backpack"

there were some very interesting stories about how this scoutmaster's troop back in the 1970's did a lot of joint high adventure stuff with a GS troop. Seems like it was a big hit for a number of years until it was kiboshed by a "concerned adult"

qwazse · April 13, 2017

FYI the article is about the 1st GS/USA jamboree at BSR. Girl scouts have been having jamborees elsewhere for quite some time. Our most active GS mom in our community went to one in her youth.

What hasn't happened, I think, is a trickle-down from Jamboree participants to troops. And this may have to do with age-based structure. Boy scout comes home and tells 7 grades of youth in one troop about what he did at Jambo. Girl Scout comes home and talks about it to her troop, and maybe her sister's, so only a couple of grades of youth share in her recollections.

Edited April 13, 2017 by qwazse

Beery · June 19, 2017

... whatever vision of the program gets passed down to the girls, many are not proud of it!

...With the cadets and seniors ... It seems like there are adult filters that go up and many GS moms talk the girls out of outdoor adventure. (Those of you who don't, bless you. But how many of your fellow leaders balk when you even suggest they make your program as outdoor oriented as yours?) The younger girls -- especially those with older siblings -- see what's in store and don't look forward to it.

In my experience (as the dad of an 8-year veteran Girl Scout who just graduated to Senior level), a lot of the dissatisfaction comes from the fact that the Girl Scout national leadership is completely out of touch with what Girl Scouting should be. Juliette Low is, I imagine, turning in her grave at the lack of outdoor activities combined with the bureaucratic nightmare Girl Scouts has become. The epitome of this is the Journey program, which is a perfect example of how to make scouting a chore. I know many of us either ignore the requirements altogether, or try our best to find the fun factor in what they've given us.

I'm lucky in that my wife is our troop leader, and she is 100% focused on the fun (and she loves to camp and do outdoor activities, as do all of the girls in our troop). Sadly though, the demands of the organization even make that difficult, with lackluster facilities and the fact that what the organization now calls "camping" is anything but, with kids being encouraged to sleep in cabins in many "camping" trips.

At the grass roots level, we can make a big difference, but if the level of disconnect between the top levels of the organization and the troops continues, I fear Girl Scouts will see even greater decline in the next few years. One good thing is that GSUSA is a lot more inclusive than some other scouting organizations (what sort of kids organization in the 21st Century excludes kids simply because they don't believe in a god?), but I really feel that GSUSA needs to get away from bureaucracy and making the girls jump through ridiculous hoops to get a simple cooking badge. I mean, "New Cuisines" is THE cooking badge for Cadettes, and it requires:

1a. Cook something from an area of the world you're curious about. Okay, sounds good so far. My daughter could make pasta, or an Indian curry.

1b. Find a relative, friend or neighbor who is an immigrant... Surely it's a cooking badge, not a cultural diversity badge. Let's keep it real!

2a. Put together a meal based on a food related news story. Why does it need to even get this complicated?

2b. Or research and cook a regional specialty that's become a cultural phenomenon.

2c. Visit the local history center or library, or ask an elderly community member, for a recipe...

And it goes on like this. That's just two of the 5 steps, all of which have three ridiculous options, including cooking a meal based in history, cooking a meal that "makes a statement" (whatever that means) and hosting a party that includes up to 4 meals. Some restaurants don't do as much research over their entire menu as Girl Scouts are required to go to to get a simple cooking badge. Why not simply make the requirement that she makes three different dishes? It's cooking - it shouldn't be rocket science or the equivalent of mounting an expedition to Everest.

I think we need to get back to the scouting basics of adventure, learning and FUN - and we need to keep it simple.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Beery

fred johnson · June 19, 2017

What sort of kids organization in the 21st Century excludes kids simply because they don't believe in a god?)

You're making a worthy point, but then you take a cheap shot about being inclusive. Girl scouts is inclusive unless you are male. My experience is BSA is more inclusive in that I know many scoutmasters who are female and many adult leaders who are female. At our summer camps, there is always a large number of female leaders and staff. Probably youth soon too. In GSUSA, how many troop leaders are male? How many girl scout camp staff are male?

BSA has a tenet of faith in God as that is where BSA came from and the vast, vast majority of charter organizations (sponsors that provide space, materials and support) are churches. I've never known it to be an issue unless someone is picking a fight. And then yes sadly it becomes an issue.

I think we need to get back to the scouting basics of adventure, learning and FUN - and we need to keep it simple.

This is where I do agree with you. BSA & GSUSA are both too legalistic in their requirements. So so much fun is lost. Personally, I think we teach better lessons when we try to keep it simple.

CalicoPenn · June 19, 2017