Troop Meetings: How to Motivate the Troop

[Stosh]

@@blw2, nice idea but now you seem to have 6 things going on to manage. I can toss this past the SPL and see what he says.

 

In any event, the boys are doing what they want because they are responsible for bringing the ideas to the PL who brings them to the PLC.

 

@blw2  Exactly!  This is precisely what I do and with everyone doing what they want to do, attendance is up, involvement is up, disciple problems are virtually non-existent.... and in spite of the chaos, the boys advance, they get to activities, they work well at events and for the most part even with 25-30 boys in the troop, the only time more than 2 adults were necessary was when the activity required drives because we couldn't fit everyone into 2 vehicles.

 

@Krampus  Question for you..... from what blw2 said, what are the 6 things going on that the adults have to manage?  If done according to what blw2 is saying there isn't anything for adults to manage.

 

"In any event, the boys are doing what they want because they are responsible for bringing the ideas to the PL who brings them to the PLC."  What's the PLC got to do with anything other than the over-lap coordination issues that blw2 mentions?  The boys are doing what they want because they are programming their own activities regardless of what the PLC or adults think.  The patrol could put out a little one page "newsletter" for the PLC and adults to keep them in the loop as a courtesy, but other than helping the patrol with their activities, of what value are they to the fired up patrol?

Edited December 17, 2015 by Stosh

[Krampus]

@@Stosh adults are not managing anything. It is the SPL that is.

[Stosh]

@@Stosh adults are not managing anything. It is the SPL that is.

 

Instead of just one person doing this, what are the PL's and their patrol Scribes along with the Troop Scribe doing to earn their POR's?  We hear all the time about the older boys (even the younger ones) not fulfilling the POR's properly and then when opportunities like this come up, we don't involve them appropriately.  I as SM spend 95% of my time figuring out opportunities for the boys to lead, manage and be involved constructively in the troop and patrols, and in this case, more than just another overwhelming job for the SPL.  I've gotten along many years without an official SPL, but I can't do without my PL's and although BSA doesn't give due credit, my APL's.  They do a ton of the heavy lifting, but troop and patrol Scribes, QM's etc. also do a ton of work.  Not many of my boys are standing around with their hands in their pockets watching one or two others burn out . 

[Krampus]

@@Stosh the PLs are doing their jobs most of the time. It is just in the area of meeting planning development that a few PLs have fallen down.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Krampus

[Stosh]

That happens on occasion in my troop as well and the PL gets replaced rather quickly.  We don't do 6 month election cycles.  If the boy slacks off and the patrol members are fed up with it, they have the option to fix it at any time.  The PL's working on advancement know this and tend to do a better job of staying on top of things than the PL's who like their job and want to keep it who tend to do a better job than those PL's who have nothing to gain or are on the verge of burning out anyway.  It's a system we have used for many years and tends to allow the cream to rise to the top and the slag skimmed off.  Knowing this from the start, the boys do tend to pay attention better to their POR responsibilities.

[Krampus]

That happens on occasion in my troop as well and the PL gets replaced rather quickly.  We don't do 6 month election cycles.  If the boy slacks off and the patrol members are fed up with it, they have the option to fix it at any time.  The PL's working on advancement know this and tend to do a better job of staying on top of things than the PL's who like their job and want to keep it who tend to do a better job than those PL's who have nothing to gain or are on the verge of burning out anyway.  It's a system we have used for many years and tends to allow the cream to rise to the top and the slag skimmed off.  Knowing this from the start, the boys do tend to pay attention better to their POR responsibilities.

Can't say the situation is so bad that the scout merits replacement. And his patrol members likely are unaware that the meeting plan is going undone. This is a communication and training point for the adults and SPL. We need to obviously do some remedial training to remind the PL and the patrol that they have an obligation to complete the plan. Several good suggestions here so far. Two key points I see are: 1) Allow more time for the patrols to finish (and submit their finished plan) during patrol corners at the troop meeting, 2) Train the patrol as a group on how to research, use the tools and complete the meeting plan.

 

I wasn't looking for a silver bullet like some of my parents. They seem bewildered that we need to keep reminding the scouts to do certain things. My response is, "Do you have to ask your super Scout at home more than once to clean his room, take out the garbage, how to clean the dishes in the sink more than once?" Their reply is usually, "Yes!", to which I reply, "So why would you expect them to learn it once and remember at Scouts?"

 

The boys will eventually learn the skill AND be able to recall it proactively. It is not that they don't remember, per se. It is the ability to use their skills proactively without reminders that's the challenge. But I have co-workers that have this issue at 35+ so who is worse?

[Stosh]

Okay, I'm on board with the management thingy going on here and I understand there are certain adult expectation for learning these management skills.  I've never really worked that hard at developing a program to promote that however.

 

You say, "And his patrol members likely are unaware that the meeting plan is going undone."  If the boys are getting something out of the program, they are excited about being there, get to do THEIR own thingy, are unaware of the "adult driven management promotion" isn't being followed, where's the foul?

 

"We need to obviously do some remedial training to remind the PL and the patrol that they have an obligation to complete the plan."  Why?    If this isn't something that's important to the way the boys want to run their patrol, why go to all the effort to impose it on them?  For me this just isn't a hill I want to die on.

 

It would seem to me that a successful patrol is being measured more on accomplishing the "plan" rather than having fun learning something.  I guess I just see my PL's more in a leadership type of role rather than a management type role.  My expectations for them focus on them developing the skills and insights into the welfare of their boys rather than using those boys as pawns to accomplish a task as driven from "above."  I guess I don't want to hassle with the push back from the boys when they aren't allowed to do what they want rather than what the "plan" states.  I tend to get the same results, however, but will less hassle.

 

This month's theme is Dutch Ovens..... (or any other theme one wishes to pick out of the air.)  Yes, even the adults can recommend a theme for the month.... as long as it's just a recommendation. 

 

Okay, TG and PL of the NSP knowing the theme suggest DO's into the menu planning requirements the newbies are working on.  Maybe instead of Smores, it is suggested by the PL that the Grubmaster do a cobbler.  So one meeting is dedicated to making and eating a patrol cobbler.  Obviously not much planning needed beyond looking into how to make a cobbler which I'm sure all the boys would like to eventually know anyway.  Requirement accomplished.  Boys had a good time.  The only plan was to have fun and get a requirement done.  Mission accomplished.

 

The mid-aged boys try out some variations on the traditional breakfast egg bake Mountain Man Breakfast.  What does it taste like with bacon? how about Spam?  Sausage?  Are onions necessary?  Jalapeno peppers instead of green peppers?  etc.  Heck, maybe they will come up with something no adult would ever think good that they totally love.  I've been surprised before.  No plan, mission accomplished.

 

On the other hand the older boy patrol is looking at the DO theme and deciding how to push the limits on what can be done in a DO.  They come up with doing blueberry muffins, baking a cheese cake, maybe a pork tenderloin roast or even the traditional pot roast.  One of the boys know about how they used to do the dig a hole, bury the DO method and they try that out.  No plan, mission accomplished.

 

Other than setting a theme and trusting the boys to use it for having a good time, what management plan is really needed? 

 

I love working on a leadership level with the boys rather than the management level.  I find that if the boys "manage" to have fun, It's a check mark on the WIN side of the ledger.  And the last time I checked, I've never really had to remind the boys over and over again to have fun.

 

Oh, and by the way, I need to add that as the theme/leadership emphasis is being promoted, the management skills are inherently being developed along the way behind the scenes.  How much planning goes into teaching the new boys about getting a DO from the QM, assigning and shopping for cobbler ingredients, collecting up $$ to pay for the food, researching the recipe, lesson on cleaning the DO, etc.  Even the older boys would have to roll up their sleeves and research how to do the dig the hold method of DO cooking.  Someone has to apply management along the way to accomplish the task, but the plan of who does what when is dictated from  the boys, not from "above".   And really, it doesn't need to be written down even.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Stosh

[blw2]

@@blw2, nice idea but now you seem to have 6 things going on to manage. I can toss this past the SPL and see what he says.

 

In any event, the boys are doing what they want because they are responsible for bringing the ideas to the PL who brings them to the PLC.

fair enough.

 

But only on patrol is deciding what the other patrols are doing..... so that in a large troop, you have 6-8 boys deciding what 50 boys are doing.  Seems like it's a little closer to home if it's all at the patrol level..... especially if the patrols are natural patrols made up of friends with similar interests and abilities..... the small group can steer their activities to what interests them the most..... perhaps more motivating.  

 

Anyway, it's just a thought.....

I guess where I'm going with this line of thought is that if scouting happens on a patrol level, why are we having "Troop" meetings at all?  Let the boys do what it is they want to do..... among all of the stuff that scouts do.  Then the fun happens naturally without being 'forced', as well as advancement, and motivation....

[Stosh]

@@blw2 careful with your thinking here or you just may have figured out what boy led, patrol method really means. 

 

I like the way you think, the boys come first, after all, it's their program.

[MattR]

These guys have the skills. I just continue to see smart, trained teenagers all standing around complaining about being cold, when the 11 year-old Scout goes to his tent and puts on his jacket. I really thinks this attitude is a byproduct of parents over-catering to their kids the past 20 years.

 

Good point, I guess what I was really thinking of, but didn't say, is that they don't have the experience to know they need to ask themselves more questions to get the details figured out. And yes, lazy is a big part of it. But the fear of failure and the fear of upsetting their peers is huge in their heads. It's better to sit quiet, knowing trouble is coming, than to rock the boat.

 

It would seem to me that a successful patrol is being measured more on accomplishing the "plan" rather than having fun learning something.  I guess I just see my PL's more in a leadership type of role rather than a management type role.  My expectations for them focus on them developing the skills and insights into the welfare of their boys rather than using those boys as pawns to accomplish a task as driven from "above."  I guess I don't want to hassle with the push back from the boys when they aren't allowed to do what they want rather than what the "plan" states.  I tend to get the same results, however, but will less hassle.

What you call management I call bureaucracy. If the plan needs to be approved by the SM and copied to the website then that's bureaucracy. However, if the plan is just a way for the PL to get his head around what's coming, or be prepared, then I find it useful. I use it all the time to ask scouts about what they want to do. Plan for a campout, ECOH, meetings, Eagle project. What's your plan? It's a way for them to explain what they want to do and for me to ask them questions, and that's a way to teach them what the scout motto is about.

 

And yet, life is what happens while you're busy making plans. I regularly ask the scouts how something went and when things go astray of the plan I then ask if it was good or bad. In almost every case, if they had a well thought out plan then any change was a good thing. They could adapt. If there was no plan then any change is typically not good, but sometimes saves their bacon.

[Stosh]

 

Good point, I guess what I was really thinking of, but didn't say, is that they don't have the experience to know they need to ask themselves more questions to get the details figured out. And yes, lazy is a big part of it. But the fear of failure and the fear of upsetting their peers is huge in their heads. It's better to sit quiet, knowing trouble is coming, than to rock the boat.

 

What you call management I call bureaucracy. If the plan needs to be approved by the SM and copied to the website then that's bureaucracy. However, if the plan is just a way for the PL to get his head around what's coming, or be prepared, then I find it useful. I use it all the time to ask scouts about what they want to do. Plan for a campout, ECOH, meetings, Eagle project. What's your plan? It's a way for them to explain what they want to do and for me to ask them questions, and that's a way to teach them what the scout motto is about.

 

And yet, life is what happens while you're busy making plans. I regularly ask the scouts how something went and when things go astray of the plan I then ask if it was good or bad. In almost every case, if they had a well thought out plan then any change was a good thing. They could adapt. If there was no plan then any change is typically not good, but sometimes saves their bacon.

 

We're in agreement here.  Yes, there's a theme... maybe that's all there is to the "plan".  The PL takes that to the boys and they huddle to come up with a plan.....The "plan" is generated by the creativity, group dynamics, shared leadership of all the boys and then they devise management for the plan to be put into action.

 

And yes, every great general will tell you that within the first couple of minutes of a battle, the battle plan gets tossed out the window.  BUT a general with creative, resourceful, and determined subordinates doesn't really need a good plan, just trust that they have a general idea of how things are laid out and know how to take the leadership to step up to the changing situation and think on their feet.

 

I like to think that everyone in the patrol is a leader.  The PL goes to the PLC and the SPL announces the theme for this month is Dutch Ovens.  The PL goes back to the patrol and announces the celebrity stars for this month are going to be the Grubmaster and Quartermaster and the APL will be there to help in anyway he can.  The floor is now open for any fun ideas about Dutch Ovens.  Now the management task of coming up with a plan of action is developed by the PATROL, WITHIN the patrol, FOR the patrol.  The plan of action does take on the necessity of certain management skills, but those are worked out according to the various abilities of the patrol members.

 

At any time the PL can call on the SPL for theme clarification or maybe the adults for some instruction on DO"s, but for me the best part of this whole process is the solutions the different patrols come up with based on the theme that's been selected.  Sometimes I'm disappointed in what the boys come up with, sometimes I'm impressed.

[Eagledad]

I don't know why but after reading thread, the theorem of "a troop naturally scales to the size the Scoutmaster can manage" keeps popping in my head.

 

That being said, I really like MattR's reply because it works for every SM no matter the size of the troop or the patrol method style.

 

Good thread, good stuff. I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

[Krampus]

I don't know why but after reading thread, the theorem of "a troop naturally scales to the size the Scoutmaster can manage" keeps popping in my head.

 

 

 

Actually, in my area most troops scale to the size the CO, the adult volunteers and the unit's gear can handle. Too many boys and too few adults and the program won't work. Sad, but that's the way BSA and the regulatory authorities have made it. Just reading the hoops PA volunteers have to go through to simply drive a car load of scouts to a camp out makes my head spin.

[TAHAWK]

Make it a game.

 

Pick a topic, and we can do it right here.

[blw2]

Actually, in my area most troops scale to the size the CO, the adult volunteers and the unit's gear can handle. Too many boys and too few adults and the program won't work. Sad, but that's the way BSA and the regulatory authorities have made it. Just reading the hoops PA volunteers have to go through to simply drive a car load of scouts to a camp out makes my head spin.

 

This brings my mind to an interesting point...

The statement you referenced mentions the scoutmaster.... 1 person

but your statement changes that to multiple people.

 

And something I'm noticing is just how many problems this increase in adults into the program is really causing.  The book "So Far So Good" I think points to how it was and arguably should be.

 

& its interesting that you point out that the BSA and authorities have made it that way.  The BSA for sure, and authorities too, but based on my 2nd grade daughter's experiences so far with GSUSA I would say that they are doing just a wee little bit more right.  Perhaps it's not so much by the 'authorities'.(?)  Their 1st year Brownies have far fewer adults involved than our troop does!