K of C dropping charters

[Krampus]

I'm not sure that comparison is accurate. The LCMS dissolved their MOU but they left the question of sponsorship up to each congregation. The KofC didn't do that.

KoC told units, go to your parish and get sponsorship. The parishes will make a determination if they want to sponsor or not. So there's still a chance (and a good one) that the parishes will take them in. In my areas the issue is already settled; they've been taken in. The KoC will still support Scouting but at the parish level, not directly. This impacts 1000 units give or take.

 

The LCMS told units they no longer have an MOU with Scouting and that, as a result, individual churches now have the liability. We have yet to see what the individual churches/congregations will do, so there's also a chance that these units will need to find a new CO. The LCMS is also looking in to a direct relationship with Trail Life. This impacts nearly 3800 units.

 

How are these situations NOT similar? Both have uncertain futures. Both impact the long-term future of units.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Krampus

[John-in-KC]

Krampus makes a vital point.

 

If I,as the liability insurer for my congregation, find out the national church body stated in official correspondence to congregations "Seek legal advice before proceeding", I'm going to have MY attorney issue the congregation a clear and concise warning:  "That's a significant area of risk, and we advise you to limit your exposure."

 

Trust me, when the local attorney who does occasional work for the parish pro bono sees that, he will say three words "Don't go there."

Edited December 11, 2015 by John-in-KC

[John-in-KC]

The licensing system of BSA requires good will between it and the licensees/chartered partners.  I see that good will being frittered away.

[CalicoPenn]

Just out of curiosity, can anyone tell us how many Chartered Organizations have been sued since July for discriminating against someone?

[CalicoPenn]

Look at all that hand-holding going on in Syria between the Muslim factions. Warms the heart. 

 

You are being sarcastic, aren't you?  It's pretty well known that ISIL is has killed more Muslims than folks of any other religion combined.  ISIL is also made up mostly of one specific denomination of Islam and they are targeting the other denominations for not doing things their denomination's way.

[Krampus]

Just out of curiosity, can anyone tell us how many Chartered Organizations have been sued since July for discriminating against someone?

 

It takes a while for lawsuits to be submitted. Troops/Crews recruited in the fall for new applications this spring, so any potential discrimination will not have happened yet. Then you need time for the lawsuits to be investigated and filed. Probably won't be a year or so until we see any of these.

 

You are being sarcastic, aren't you?  It's pretty well known that ISIL is has killed more Muslims than folks of any other religion combined.  ISIL is also made up mostly of one specific denomination of Islam and they are targeting the other denominations for not doing things their denomination's way.

The Inquisitions killed a fair number of people, but yes, I was being sarcastic.

[Peregrinator]

How are these situations NOT similar? Both have uncertain futures. Both impact the long-term future of units.

Of course one can find similarities if one looks for them. But there are differences as well:

 

LCMS - No longer supports BSA institutionally, leaves it to individual congregations to decide whether to continue to sponsor.

KofC - Supports BSA through local parishes, but will not allow individual councils to decide whether to continue to sponsor BSA.

 

or:

 

LCMS - BSA is icky, but we won't tell you what to do.

KofC - We're cool with BSA, but stop supporting them.

[Peregrinator]

The Inquisitions killed a fair number of people, but yes, I was being sarcastic.

ISIS has already killed far more people than the Spanish Inquisition did in the 350 years of its existence, and likely more than all of the mediaeval Inquisitions put together.

[Krampus]

 

 

Of course one can find similarities if one looks for them. But there are differences as well:

LCMS - No longer supports BSA institutionally, leaves it to individual congregations to decide whether to continue to sponsor.
KofC - Supports BSA through local parishes, but will not allow individual councils to decide whether to continue to sponsor BSA.

or:

LCMS - BSA is icky, but we won't tell you what to do.
KofC - We're cool with BSA, but stop supporting them.

 

No one said there were no differences. But overall the level of risk to the units is similar.

 

ISIS has already killed far more people than the Spanish Inquisition did in the 350 years of its existence, and likely more than all of the mediaeval Inquisitions put together.

 

Source?

[Stosh]

The troop I now have (small, just started) was started in an area where there was 4 BSA units 5 miles to the north, 2 BSA units 4 miles to the south, 1 unit 4 miles to the west and 1 unit 25 miles to the east.  There used to be a Catholic unit that served this area, it folded when the church closed its parochial school.  After 6 years I started the new unit 2 blocks from the old Catholic church in a church of a different denomination.  Why didn't it just move 2 blocks over to the new CO 6 years earlier?  It might be a good question to research if there are going to be a lot of units moving around to different CO's.  It could be just easier to walk away than to hassle the switch.

[Peregrinator]

Source?

You can start with The Spanish Inquisition: A historical revision by Henry Kamen. I think the generally accepted figure now is that between 3,000 and 5,000 people were sentenced to death by the Spanish Inquisition and executed by the State. But people still buy into the "black legend" of the Inquisition popularized in Elizabethan England.

 

ISIS killed approximately 6,000 in 2014 alone.

[Krampus]

@@Peregrinator Kamen's account is disputed. Barber, Smith and Maden have different numbers vastly higher.

 

Even MotherJones who quoted the 6000 ISIS number says it's impossible to say how many people ISIS has killed. So how can we trust one source using second and third hand material going back 700+ years?

 

http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2015/12/isis-syria-death-casualty-count

Edited December 12, 2015 by Krampus

[Peregrinator]

Kamen's account is disputed. Barber, Smith and Maden have different numbers vastly higher.

I don't know anything about Barber but Madden gives a figure of 4,000 and Smith's booklet is polemical, not scholarly, and doesn't have the benefit of modern scholarship on the subject (it was written in 1931).

 

Even MotherJones who quoted the 6000 ISIS number says it's impossible to say how many people ISIS has killed. So how can we trust one source using second and third hand material going back 700+ years?

Even if Kamen did rely primarily on 2nd- and 3rd-hand material, the alternative is to just make numbers up.

[CalicoPenn]

Or we can admit that compating ISIL, which has such modern weapons as guns, tanks and missiles is just a wee bit silly.   If the Inquisitor's had acces to guns, tanls and other weapons of mocern wrefere, they would have used them.

[Krampus]

....and many of the ISIS killings are war related, not terror.