Disruptive Scout

[Rock Doc]

A lot of that can and should be done in this situation depends on the skills of the leadership, both youth and adult.

 

I have "taken back" disruptive boys and had no problems.   Disruptive scouts who quit are still notified of any and all troop/patrol activities until their registration runs out and they don't recharter.

 

I tend to think outside the box when dealing with such situations and when the boy can't second guess and figure you out, they are at a disadvantage.  Peer pressure along with adult guidance goes a long way to make up for poor parenting at home.  The discipline and boundaries provided by Scouting is usually what these boys need more than getting punished, kicked out or told they can't return.  How does one work that out in light of the Scout Law?  We can't all be dealt 100% well adjusted, politie scouts all the time.  Some of the boys are going to be Tom Slade.

You are correct in saying that we should be Loyal, Courteous, Kind, Cheerful and Friendly to this scout, and we have, but there are limits to our patience. And we now feel that making continued accommodations to the potential detriment of the 30+ other scouts who are not causing problems is simply unacceptable. We'll work with the DE to find him a new troop (there are plenty to chose from in our area) if he wishes to continue in the program.

 

Again, thanks for all the feedback.

[scoutldr]

I should also mention that your CO (COR) also gets a vote.  They have to sign off on all membership applications.  He would have to file a new application to transfer.

[Stosh]

As I stated before, not everyone has the ability to handle disruptive scouts.  Some who are minorly disruptive and those who are destructive.  I guess I'm just a sucker for punishment because I don't have many "limits" when it comes to Loyal, Courteous, Kind, Cheerful and Friendly.  After all, someone once said, patience is a virtue.    Not trying to be judgmental, it's just that not everyone's built the same way.

[Eagledad]

Was the scout disruptive to be disruptive, or is struggling with the behavior? Behavior is hard to change and requires self motivation, that is human nature. The question is can the scout demonstrate a motivation to change? 

 

I can think back on several scouts that were disruptive because of their parents and the only ones who changed and stuck with the program where the ones whose parents made an effort to change. It's these boys who really needs scouts, but some fires are so big that the typical scouting program isn't enough to squash the pain. Those young men need something extra. Sometimes we have it, sometimes we don't.

 

Barry

[Stosh]

@Eagledad  you are correct, but it would be nice if one-size-fits-all when it comes to BSA.  Unfortunately not everyone no matter how well meaning they try, just have to pass it off to those with more skill and/or experience. 

 

I think we are seeing more and more of this behavior as the family unit of mom/dad/kids breaks down.  Young people just aren't ready to handle those difficult situations and they lash out at the world around them.  Out of my 5 scouts only one is in a natural mom/dad/siblings setting.  If it gets any worse, we're going to all need Social Worker degrees to be SM's.

[NJCubScouter]

As I stated before, not everyone has the ability to handle disruptive scouts.

Stosh, we all understand that your skills in dealing with youth are beyond those of mortal men. I'm guessing that Rock Doc is an ordinary guy like most of the rest of us and we all just have to muddle through the best we can. You are fortunate to be exempt from such limitations.

[SSScout]

Came in late, but to summarize the good advice I've heard here and on other threads:  1) Not every Disruptive Scout can be "saved".  Think of the safety and success of the Troop first. 2) Keep to the Scout Promise and Law and use that as the standard to hold the Scout to, and to point out to him as to his problem areas. 2A)   Include the parent(s) in all your considerations. Often the parent has no idea what is going on with their urchin. 2B)  Get agreement with the other Scout Leaders. Make sure they also see what you see. 2C) Include the SPL and other boy leaders (if they haven't come to you first) in your considerations. Often they see things you will never see.   3)  When it comes time to say "no more", you notify the Scout, his parents, the COR and the DE and include the reasons, be specific. 4) If you learn the Scout wants to transfer to another Troop, and you have the opportunity to speak to that Troop, you might want to do that. 5) We are not mental health counselors, but sometimes we can be the shelter/sanctuary  that troubled Scout might need. That said, protect yourself and your Troop. 6) Remember the  "Youth Protection" guidelines.  The evidence of child abuse takes many forms. In your desire to help that troubled Scout, you just might need to make a report to Child Protective Services.  6A)  That said, remember to protect yourself from unwarranted accusations.  7)  As Bob the Tomato said, "it's for the kids".   You need to be there for the Scouts that can use you.

 See you on the trail....

[Stosh]

Stosh, we all understand that your skills in dealing with youth are beyond those of mortal men. I'm guessing that Rock Doc is an ordinary guy like most of the rest of us and we all just have to muddle through the best we can. You are fortunate to be exempt from such limitation

 

As long as this is not the I&P section and if one were to be a moderator they might want to keep the snarky editorialisms to a minimum.  If one were to go back and look at all the postings I have made on this subject, I said, not everyone has the skill, background and experience to handle disruptive boys.  I also commented that as society changes it may eventually expect more and more of already burdened SM/ASM's in dealing with problems like this.

 

I am sure there are plenty of professionally trained teachers and such that have had some training in this area and given a few years willl probably have a lot more experience, but even that will not fit the bill for all SM/ASM's out there with problem scouts.

 

I don't expect everyone to have 45 years experience of working with young people as I have, but one has to start somewhere and throwing in the towel at the first sign of problems is not the answer and I don't think Rock Doc was doing that.  But did he learn something along the way so next time he will be better prepared? 

 

I'm thinking his concern expressed on the forum was a way to seek information from those with experience.  That goes a long way to cut to the chase, but to simply say, "we had a difficult boy so we tossed in the towel, so you should too", is not a useful bit of advice.

[cyclops]

Hypothetically, if there was a forum member whose 'uber-leadership' was, in fact, superior to all others, touting that fact would be of little use or help to units that don't have him as the leader. It would come off more as gratuitous self-aggrandizement.

Hypothetically speaking, of course.

[Cambridgeskip]

There is an element of truth is what Stosh is saying here. When handling some kids there is little substitute for either many years experience or formal training.

One of my ASLs (what you would call an ASM) is 73, he’s been at the group since he joined as an 8 year old cub and with the exception of 5 years off when he had very young children has never left. Those years of experience that he has are invaluable. He has a finely honed instinct for how to handle any given difficult character. He knows who and when needs to be taken quietly aside to just spend some time talking. Or not even talking. I saw him take a very angry young man from a difficult background aside one night and together they repaired a broken lantern. They didn’t talk about issues or his family or anything. They just talked about how to fix that broken lantern. Absolute magic. Equally I have seen him be that non moving brick wall that it did another boy the world of good to run headlong into and find that finally somebody was going to say no to him and put him in his place.

 

The only other person I saw as good as him was a lot younger. She was an assistant cub leader but had trained as a social worker. Sadly we lost her when she quit to become a nun in France. She had that same instinct.

 

I would say to Stosh though that by the sound of it you have an advantage not just in your experience but in the size of your troop. 5 scouts is small and you don’t have to divide yourself among very many scouts. If I’m at full strength I have 38 kids though the door. That’s an awful lot more young people that need a slice of me and my team. In a bigger troop the time will come that much earlier where the SM may have to look at whether it is fare on the rest of the troop to keep that scout in while they are disrupting the activities of the troop and also inevitably drawing more of the time of the adults involved.

 

A final observation. Over 18 years as a scouter I have had my share of the difficult kids, boys and girls. Many of them I, my team, other young people and scouting generally have been a good influence on. I can think of the girl that was in almost continuous trouble at school but was a brilliant patrol leader with us. There have though been a small number where there was little or nothing we could do. They are few and far between. I can count them on my fingers and have some to spare. They were a diverse bunch. The roots of their problems came from a variety of places. Some had two parents, some had 1, some had siblings some were only children. What united them though was that they didn’t really want to be scouts. They came either because their friends did and they wanted to hang around with them or their parents wanted them to come. They didn’t want to hike, or camp or light fires. They weren’t getting anything out of what we were doing. And I think there’s a lesson in that somewhere!

[Stosh]

@@Cambridgeskip

 

  Yes, I currently serve a very small troop, but that's not always been the case.  The largest troop I have worked with was 50+ as ASM, the largest troop as SM was 32.  I have dealt with groups up to 60+ in non-scouting settings and I can assure you that size does matter.  A disruptive boy in a 5 member troop is far more destructive than in a 40 member troop.  In a larger setting he can be isolated into a patrol of just is buddies and it goes a long way towards minimizing his negative efforts to the rest of the patrols.  It also allows the adults to rein him in a bit and keep an eye on him.

 

One must also realize that there are different types of disruption and the reaction to it by adults is different.  Your example of your older leader is very good at pointing it out.  On the one hand the boy with the lantern was seeking attention and he was going to get it whether it was positive or negative in nature.  The repair job was a positive that he enjoyed well enough to seek more of it because in the long run the positive always is the most productive.  On the other hand when facing bullies and other tyrant types of negative behavior the brick wall is the best reaction.  Obviously years of experience on the part of this gentleman was honed appropriately.  The area of ocial science studies addresses it and will push the knowledge and awareness of such actions into earlier years as is the case of your female leader.  It is unfortunate that observing these types was happenstance.  It would have been quite useful to tap into their knowledge and experience and have them bring that to the table for the troop.  Usually we don't think of that until we are waist deep in allegators and then it's kinda late in the game.

 

BSA probably could do a better job of training SM/ASM's in this area with a few tools of the trade from more educated and expereinced scouters.  Might be a bit more helpful at University of Scouting than some new cobbler recipe.

[perdidochas]

Until recently we had a very disruptive Scout in the troop and tried to coach him to change his behavior using Scoutmaster conferences, Boards of Review, and parent meetings. However, the root of his behavior seemed due to lack of parental discipline (he could do no wrong in their eyes), and no amount of counseling improved the situation. Prior to us asking him to leave, he joined another local troop. But now he wants to return. So, given our history I'm reluctant to start over again. Anyone experienced something similar?

 

Talk to the scoutmaster of his current troop. He may be on the verge of being kicked out of it as well. I'd be very hesitant to take him back. 

[perdidochas]

《It's unlikely that his behavior has changed much. I'm just not aware of troops saying "no" to youth wishing to join. 》

Join is one thing, rejoin is another. 

[JoeBob]

1- Don't base your entire decision on how the boy relates to his parents.  I have one scout in particular who blows off his folks (because they let him) but knows that he can't get away with ignoring me.  Another boy's father regularly thanks me for making his son toe the line, because he can't control him at home.  It seems that we're teaching fathers, too.  If the boys want to be scouts, they will follow the rules that you set, as long as you enforce them.  Your leverage is their continued participation.

2- The down side to unruly boys is the challenge that they present to their youth leaders.  That conversation usually runs, "How do you think that youth leader who you just sassed is going to respond you when you are the leader?"

3- Bad behavior can be allowed a second chance; but I'd have a serious conversation with the scout laying down conditions first.  Behavior that endangers other scouts is held to a higher standard.  Willful behavior that endangers others, might not be forgiven.  

[gumbymaster]

To keep repeating an action and expect a different result is the definition of insanity.

 

In my mind, if the Scout should be allowed to return, something should be different ... this could be a lot of things

1. Maybe the Scout has matured a little over this time

2. Maybe the Scout really wants to be with his friends, and now understanding the consequences of his behavior is willing to change

3. Maybe factors at home have changed (either for better or worse) in a way that this means more to that Scout now than before

4. Maybe the Scout has gotten some professional counseling or had their medications (added/removed/changed).

5. Maybe something else ...

 

Without talking with the Scout about their reasons for wanting to come back, really talking (this should be one of the most intense SM Conferences that you ever have), you may not know.

1. Does the Scout recognize the inappropriateness of his prior behavior?

1a. Was there a reason for the prior behavior?

2. Is he willing to agree to a behavior plan that you, the parents, and he all agree to?

2a. Will you be able to follow through on your committments in that behavior plan?

3. What does the Scout want to get out of being in the Troop?

 

If after all that, you feel it might be appropriate to let them back ...

1. What is the general feeling of the Committee and the other Adult leadership?

1a. Are they willing to help follow through on the behavior plan?

2. Finally, what would be the feelings of the Troop in general, would they be willing to give him that second chance?  You don't want one of the mass resignation events as described above.  You may not be able to go into detail to the Troop members about why things will be different, will they trust that you have a plan in place?  Can you speak for the Scouts?  If there were any prior specific instances of conflict and the other party is still there, how will they feel, can they be motivated to allow a second chance?

 

We all want the best for the boys, that's why we are here.  We also cannot let what might be best for one boy ruin the experience for many more.

 

Very few of us are professionally trained, and those of us who are battle trained may not always recognize the differences between one situation and the next. We do the best we can. As long as we are fair and transparent in our dealings with everyone involved, we can hope that while we may not achieve the best possible result, that we achive an acceptable one.