Eagle BOR questions

[jpc763]

Hello, I am a troop SM and recently had a scout go through his EBOR.  As SM, I sit in support of the young man and do not ask questions.  Some things came up that troubled me.

 

First, this scout had several blue cards without SM signatures (from before my term).  These MB's were earned at district level MB Universities.  This causes some consternation on the board but ultimately they determined that if the district validated his application than they did not have the authority to deny him based on this.

 

Second, this scout had a very difficult time explaining his concept of God.  He does not attend any kind of organized religion.  Once again, this caused some consternation on the board and once again, they ultimately determined that he should pass given that he had a letter of reference from his spiritual leader (his father).

 

This got me thinking about the purpose of an EBOR.

 

In our District, the EBOR is made up of the District Eagle Advisor, several members of the Troop Committee and a community member of the candidates choosing.

 

Are they supposed to be a rubber stamp or can they actually deny a scout the rank?  I remember specifically (because I asked for clarification) from my SM training that once the scout passes the SM Conference for ANY rank (including Eagle), they cannot be denied the rank.

 

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

[Stosh]

Keep it in mind that politics plays it's role in every aspect of BSA.  Remembering that helps one sleep easier at night.

[scoutldr]

If a Scout has no belief in a "higher power" or whatever the politically correct terminology du jour is that satisfies "A Scout is Reverent", the Eagle board is not the place to be questioning it for the first time.

 

Likewise, if he had blue cards that had not been properly approved, the troop committee did not do its job when awarding the merit badge. Once the badge is awarded, it cannot be nullified. As the current SM, your job is to work with your Committee to fix the process.

Edited December 3, 2015 by scoutldr

[jpc763]

Keep it in mind that politics plays it's role in every aspect of BSA.  Remembering that helps one sleep easier at night.

I am not sure what this is supposed to mean.

 

If a Scout has no belief in a "higher power" or whatever the politically correct terminology du jour is that satisfies "A Scout is Reverent", the Eagle board is not the place to be questioning it for the first time.

 

Likewise, if he had blue cards that had not been properly approved, the troop committee did not do its job when awarding the merit badge. Once the badge is awarded, it cannot be nullified. As the current SM, your job is to work with your Committee to fix the process.

I understand that the higher power question is not for the EBOR.  Exactly where is that supposed to be covered and by whom?

 

For the committee, there are no members left from that time.  This gets more complicated when you understand who the boys parents are.  They are both very active at the council level.

 

So if the EBOR is not supposed to ask about God and not supposed to follow up on blue cards, what is their purpose and once again, can they deny the rank?

[scoutldr]

There are a minimum of 5 other opportunities (10 if you count SM conferences) for the boy's commitment to the Scout Oath and Law to be discussed.  Presumably the boy successfully accomplished Boards of Review for Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, Star and Life, did he not?  When he joined, he and his parents agreed to the Declaration of Religious Principles by signing the application.  By the time he gets to the EBOR, there should be no surprises regarding advancements, merit badges, and character. So yes, in effect it is a "rubber stamp".  The many EBORS I have chaired and/or sat on as the District Rep have just been a friendly discussion of the young man's goals and aspirations and to plant the seed that the opportunities provided to him must now be "repaid" in kind when his circumstances allow.  By that time, his commitment to the Scout Oath and Law have been firmly established.

 

Yes, they can deny the rank, but they have to tell the scout (in writing, I think) exactly why.  And in my experience, he will appeal to the District or Council and win.  Every time.

Edited December 3, 2015 by scoutldr

[CalicoPenn]

Can an Eagle Scout BOR deny rank?  Yes - and they must put in writing why they denied rank and tell the Scout how to appeal.  Based on what you wrote, if the BOR denied rank because the blue cards were not signed or because they didn't like the Scout's answer on the concept of God, I'm pretty sure his appeal will be granted at the Council level without much gnashing of teeth at that level.

 

Blue cards are a record of the Scout's progress on a merit badge - they are not the official record that a Scout has earned the merit badge (though we ask Scouts to hold on to them just in case that official record get's screwed up).  They aren't meant to be reviewed at a BOR, for any rank (at a Scoutmaster's Conference, yes - its a great way for the SM to know how a Scout is progressing on a merit badge).  The Scoutmaster's siganture on a blue card isn't a permission for the Scout to start a merit badge, it's an acknowledgment that the Scoutmaster is aware that the Scout is working on the merit badge.  The best Scoutmasters understand that there may be opportunities for a Scout to start and work on a merit badge before the Scout has the opportunity to talk to the Scoutmaster and will sign the blue card later.  If I were the Scoutmaster at that BOR and the Board was wringing their hands over the fact that the blue cards weren't signed by the Scoutmaster, I would solve their dilemma by signing the blue cards on the spot and challenging them to make an issue of it.

 

The purpose of BOR's at every rank is to first make sure that the work was completed and then to measure the Scout's experience.  It isn't to test them on things, or to try to catch them in some kind of gotcha situation about duty to God or duty to Country - all of that stuff should have been vetted long before an Eagle BOR.  I really hate that Eagle BOR's have devolved in to wringing hands over a Scout's belief and duty to God (and this is nothing new - some folks know that my Eagle Scout rank was awarded as an appeal because of a BOR that refused to accept anything but their narrow view of religion.  While the Eagle BOR should certainly not be a rubber stamp, it shold be far more like a conversation with the Scout where the board gets to hear the Scout brag about his adventures and his project.  A good board is going to know, through this informal conversation, if the Scout has met the requirements or not. 

Edited December 3, 2015 by CalicoPenn

[jpc763]

All,

 

I want to thank you for your thoughts and comments.  I really appreciate it.

 

Your answers reinforce the training I received and the way our troop operates.  I have a member of a recent board who has asked some questions which I tried to answer and he had more questions so I thought I would ask the collective wisdom here.

 

The scout earned the badge.  I believe him to be an Eagle Scout and therefore have no issue with it.  

 

I know this young man and although he does not talk about God, he does have a higher power.  He just is a 17 year old kid who has a hard time explaining it.

 

The BOR reviewed his blue cards only because he provided all of that as part of his BOR.  These cards were from 2010 or 2011 and as I had mentioned they were earned at a different districts MBU.  The SM at the time has long since retired.  Signing them on the spot is a good idea as I just had a scout who recently transfered to my troop have a BOR for Star and he has a couple of Blue Cards that are not signed by his previous SM (The signatures I am talking about are not the ones on the front that acknowledge that the scout is working on the badge.  They are the ones that the SM signs after the councelor signs off all of the requirements)..

 

Another reason to gather the collective wisdom is because a meeting has been requested to review how to make sure that scouts are ready for the ranks that they aspire to.

 

Thanks again.

[Stosh]

+I am not sure what this is supposed to mean.-*

 

I understand that the higher power question is not for the EBOR.  Exactly where is that supposed to be covered and by whom?

 

For the committee, there are no members left from that time.  This gets more complicated when you understand who the boys parents are.  They are both very active at the council level.

 

So if the EBOR is not supposed to ask about God and not supposed to follow up on blue cards, what is their purpose and once again, can they deny the rank?

 

Everyone has their agenda.  Everyone has their bias.  Everyone has their opinion.  As mentioned, the higher power issue needed to be addressed long before the scout ever got to the EBOR.  Obviously the SM had his/her agenda and the EBOR people had theirs. 

 

Some scouters have a control freak obsession and even though the BSA program is supposed to be run by the boys, there are times when they are not allowed to participate, i.e. EBOR's.  It's one of the few times the saber rattling and strutting can be justified.  The comments by Calico articulate how this is "checked and balanced" in the program.  This way the adults can do their strutting and the boy can still get his Eagle.

 

Then their is the obsessive compulsive that needs every t crossed and i dotted.  It is as if they wallow in the glory of finding other people's oversights.  

 

So now, Keep it in mind that politics plays it's role in every aspect of BSA.  Remembering that helps one sleep easier at night.  As long as one keeps their own agenda in check and is working FOR THE BOYS, one doesn't need to worry about getting in the way, but knowing others will try is approaching the issues "Prepared".  

[John-in-KC]

 

In our District, the EBOR is made up of the District Eagle Advisor, several members of the Troop Committee and a community member of the candidates choosing.

 

 

 

You may want to point out to your District Advancement Chairman page 55 of the 2015 Guide to Advancement, Section 8.0.0.3:

 

8.0.0.3

 

Composition of the Board of Review

 

A board of review must consist of no fewer than three members and no more than six, all of whom must be at least 21 years of age. For further specifications, see “Particulars for Tenderfoot Through Life Ranks (or Palms),â€8.0.2.0, and “Particulars for the Eagle Scout Rank,â€

8.0.3.0. Unit leaders and assistants shall not serve on a board of review for a Scout in their own unit. Parents,

guardians, or relatives shall not serve on a board for their son. The candidate or his parent(s) or guardian(s)shall have no part in selecting any board of review members. (emphasis added)

[John-in-KC]

Personally, I believe the above to be sad.  My son asked his Camp Director (it was his first season on camp staff), his PD (a Scoutmaster in his own right), and a member of the Council Executive Committee who he knew to be part of his EBOR.  My CC later said that was one of the more thought provoking boards he'd ever seen in action.

[jpc763]

 

You may want to point out to your District Advancement Chairman page 55 of the 2015 Guide to Advancement, Section 8.0.0.3:

 

8.0.0.3

 

Composition of the Board of Review

 

A board of review must consist of no fewer than three members and no more than six, all of whom must be at least 21 years of age. For further specifications, see “Particulars for Tenderfoot Through Life Ranks (or Palms),â€8.0.2.0, and “Particulars for the Eagle Scout Rank,â€

8.0.3.0. Unit leaders and assistants shall not serve on a board of review for a Scout in their own unit. Parents,

guardians, or relatives shall not serve on a board for their son. The candidate or his parent(s) or guardian(s)shall have no part in selecting any board of review members. (emphasis added)

 

I assume that this means that the SM and ASMs are supposed to precluded from the EBOR.  That would be a change in 100% of the EBOR that I have been in.

 

How about Committee Members?

 

Also, who is supposed to make sure that this is adhered to?  The District Eagle Representative (who sets up the board)?  We have 2 of them and they both apparently do not follow this rule.

[Krampus]

I assume that this means that the SM and ASMs are supposed to precluded from the EBOR.  That would be a change in 100% of the EBOR that I have been in.

 

How about Committee Members?

 

Also, who is supposed to make sure that this is adhered to?  The District Eagle Representative (who sets up the board)?  We have 2 of them and they both apparently do not follow this rule.

 

You are the SM, so the Scout's preparation for rank advancement falls to you, as does everything up to the BOR..

 

Adherence to the BOR process usually falls to the advancement chair. The SM should always know how the advancement chair will handle BORs, who will be on them, questions, process, etc.

 

EBORs are handled by the advancement chair and, in most troops I know, an "Eagle Coordinator" or advisor of some kind. Most units I know have parents or committee members sitting in on BORs. Same for EBORs but with the addition of the district rep.

 

I always use the Guide to Advancements. Carry it with me (electronically). If anyone tells me something that does not sound right I consult the GTA. If it does not corroborate what someone says, I show them or ask them to point to the GTA section backing up their claim.

 

SMs can sit in on BORs if allowed, but we usually don't say a thing. Parents are not allowed. 

[scoutldr]

The SM or his designee may "observe" the EBOR, but may not participate (speak) other than to introduce the candidate.  There are two methods of conducting EBORs.  Some councils delegate it to the units, to be conducted by the unit Committee Chair and committee members, with a rep from the District Advancement Committee (who must sign the Eagle Applcation).  Some councils conduct all EBOR at the District or Council level.

 

The post from John in KC is news to me ... is that a change?  I think in the past, the Eagle candidate could request a member of the community (teacher, Pastor, etc) to participate.

[qwazse]

I assume that this means that the SM and ASMs are supposed to precluded from the EBOR.  That would be a change in 100% of the EBOR that I have been in.

 

How about Committee Members?

 

Also, who is supposed to make sure that this is adhered to?  The District Eagle Representative (who sets up the board)?  We have 2 of them and they both apparently do not follow this rule.

Every council is different.

In our council:

• Our SM conferences partly help the boy prepare for the EBoR. We (usually a couple of ASMs join in) always ask about religion and try to help the boy give an answer that he feels comfortable with. For some boys this is the first time they've been asked to lay out how they work the 12th point of the scout law, and they find putting words to their thoughts a rewarding exercise. A boy may ask for more than one conference if he feels unprepared for the EBoR.
• All of the boy's advancement records, along with his youth application, are reviewed by council prior to him getting the all-clear to schedule a board of review. Blue cards are crossed-checked with advancement reports.
• We SM/ASMs introduce the scout to the EBoR then leave and wait elsewhere.
• Our boards are comprised of the troop/crew committee (the boy's parents excepted) and one or two members of the district advancement committee, and on occasion prominent members of the community. The district representatives are the "quality control" and answer to the Council Advancement Chairman.

I have never heard of any problems with our district representatives. They are very good about coaching new committee members. All and all, I like the process because it gives our committee some quality feedback from the best and brightest in our troop.

[Krampus]

The SM or his designee may "observe" the EBOR, but may not participate (speak) other than to introduce the candidate.  There are two methods of conducting EBORs.  Some councils delegate it to the units, to be conducted by the unit Committee Chair and committee members, with a rep from the District Advancement Committee (who must sign the Eagle Applcation).  Some councils conduct all EBOR at the District or Council level.

 

The post from John in KC is news to me ... is that a change?  I think in the past, the Eagle candidate could request a member of the community (teacher, Pastor, etc) to participate.

 

Curious, but how are there just two methods? The GTA says, "Council advancement committees must determine— and make known—method(s) for conducting Eagle Scout boards of review: whether unit committees or the council or district advancement committees administer them, and also how board chairpersons are selected."

 

I have seen a few different methods (unit, group of units, district, cross-district, council, etc.) used. I think there may be more than two official methods.