Camping MB and long-term camp

[vumbi]

OK, then same question to you Stosh: have you always done absolutely everything absolutely by the book? Yes? No?

[Sentinel947]

 We're all human, we all make mistakes, either because of ignorance, or ego. I know I've "adjusted" requirements for a Scout when I was first starting out as MBC 4 years ago.  I was wrong. I didn't know better. That being said, that doesn't invalidate what I'm about to say.

Krampus and others are in the right as a matter of BSA policy. The reason is simple, the BSA wants Scouts to get exposure to a variety of camping experiences, not just resident summer camp. ​​Generally requirements have a purpose, changing requirements distorts the purpose of a requirement.

 

While we are trying to help Scouts, we shouldn't change requirements. (Special needs Scouts are the exception, and we get help from our Council to handle that.)

 

​Skeptic has good intentions, but is changing the requirements. I'm not a fan of this. While Skeptic does not, other folks out there change requirements to feed ego and bully kids. The other extreme is well meaning parents who want to eliminate every difficulty for their kid to advance.

 

I think there are plenty of opportunities to be flexible with our Scouts and how we play the game of scouting. I'm a big advocate for not treating every kid the same. But requirements are supposed to be the consistent to how they are written.

 

Obviously, the quality of what is accepted SHOULD vary based on the Scout. Ex. I'd expect more in a Communications MB speech from a 16 year old than I would for a 12 year old. ​A scout that is very shy, V's a social butterfly.
 

The challenge with merit badges is adhering to how things are written, in the case of nights camping for camping merit badge, versus requirements that are more vaguely written, like the 5 minute speech for Communications.

Just my thoughts, take ​them for what you will,

Sentinel947 ​

[jpstodwftexas]

So what are yall gonna count when Camps become Lodge/Cabin Camps for Summer Camps?

Since yall say Outdoors only 

 

And How Many Summer Camp already set up tents...""Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched""

Edited December 6, 2015 by jpstodwftexas

[Hedgehog]

@@Hedgehog, I would have never guessed.

 

So, how do you work with a boy on this one?

Obviously you know the boundaries! Plus, you clearly have boys who are going to try every outing imaginable. (Not to mention boys from other troops whose SM sent them your way.) How to convert every action into bling is the last thing on their mind (thank goodness)!

 

Furthermore, the only reason I bother with the GTA is to send adults on their merry way. I don't expect boys to wade through it or blogs. Etc .... The reqs, the pamphlet, and his counselor should be all he needs for any determination.

 

So, knowing there's guys like me who want the process to minimize pencil whipping and maximize reflection, what do you do? What might you do differently after hearing us blather on?

 

The boys learn about camping by doing it.  Its up to the older guys to teach the younger guys what they need to know - whether that be at our weekly meetings or on campouts.

 

If a boy doesn't have 15 nights, I won't work with them on the MB.  They just don't have the experience to make any discussions meaningful to them.  At 15 nights, most of them have done summer camp at least twice (only one counting) and five other campouts.  The boys have enough opportunities beause we do an outing every month of the year.  They need to provide a list and I check it against Troopmaster which tracks nights camped.

 

The other "doing" requirements (hiking 1,000 feet, backpacking, biking, canoeing, etc. and the conservation project) is easy in that our outdoor program incorporates those elements.  The other requirement is to help a patrol go on a campout - they get this by serving as their patrol's quartermaster for a campout.

 

When it comes time for the scout to complete the "learning" portion, I've either done it in an hour long one-on-one conversation (following or a four hour merit badge session (just did one with six scouts).  It isn't me teaching, it is them talking. They discuss what needs to be discussed, demonstrate what needs to be demonstrated (the merit badge session had a race to see who could put up their tent up the fastest) and write what needs to be written.

[Sentinel947]

So what are yall gonna count when Camps become Lodge/Cabin Camps for Summer Camps?

Since yall say Outdoors only 

 

And How Many Summer Camp already set up tents...""Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched""[/size]

The part you didn't copy explains, "The 20 days and 20 nights must be at a designated Scouting activity or event. You may use a week of long-term camp toward this requirement. If the camp provides a tent that has already been pitched, you need not pitch your own tent."

 

Sentinel947

[Stosh]

OK, then same question to you Stosh: have you always done absolutely everything absolutely by the book? Yes? No?

 

Nope, but I've done it many times against the book after discussing it with my SE and gotten approval from him.  Then of course the case can always be made that "by the book" is nothing more than someone's interpretation.

 

Let's put it this way.  Has my advancement processes ever been questioned by anyone?  either too lenient or too strict?  Nope.

 

Ever bent the rules on G2SS?  After forty-five years of working with youth, still at it with no accusations or challenges.

 

Do I teach BSA NYLT management dynamics and call them leadership?  Nope.

 

Do I teach the Patrol Method when BSA ignores it?  Yep

 

So, in a way, a case can be made that I don't always "follow the rules".  But when the council needs a UC or someone to start a new troop in a rough part of town, why is it they call on me?    Why is it the District Commish is my ASM and doesn't have a famiy member in the troop?  

 

One can't turn out quality Eagles by reinterpreting the rules. 

[vumbi]

Thanks, I like to keep track of pots and kettles.

[Krampus]

So Krampus, have you always done absolutely everything absolutely by the book? Yes? No?

 

As a matter of fact, you yourself advocated for flexibility on 5 October this year in regard to 'special needs' boys.

 

"Posted 05 October 2015 - 10:36 AM

@Exibar, Section 10.2.0.0 (Advancement Flexibility Allowed) in the GTA spells it out. Just like everything we do in Scouting we should have the boy strive to reach beyond his grasp. Our unit usually meets with the parents to determine how we are going to proceed for each rank. We set goals and boundaries, identify how we will evaluate the scout and move forward. We remain flexible."

 

Do you only apply this flexibility to the scouts whom in your judgement you feel like you need to apply it? Or to none of them?

 

In case you have not read the special needs accommodations from BSA, they are the ONLY group for which you CAN change requirements.

 

Let's make sure that when you are trying to make a point you stick to the topic. We are talking about applying the STANDARD REQUIREMENTS to the AVERAGE SCOUT, and NOT special needs scouts. There is a mountain of difference there. BSA supports making accommodations for special needs scouts. They DO NOT support making changes for your average scout.

 

Hope that's clear.

 

...and yes, I read "the book" (and all other documentation) and try to live by the letter of the law. I'm not one of those people who thinks just because my dog listens to me I can let him off the leash in the park when there is a leash law. I don't cut down the shoulder of the road just because I am taking the next exit. If someone held the door open for me at Starbucks because I had my hands full I, in turn let them in line in front of me because that's where they would be had they not opened the door for me. I don't cheat on my taxes, when I am not charged for the item that the check out girl forgot to scan I pay for it. Rules are in place for a reason. Don't like them? Change them, but don't think they don't apply to you because you don't like them. I may break a rule from time to time but it is never intentional. My patrols don't play laser tag, but the boys in the patrol may meet as a group (without BSA affiliation) and play it. That's not breaking or bending the rules, that's boys finding a way around things even they consider silly.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Krampus

[Krampus]

So what are yall gonna count when Camps become Lodge/Cabin Camps for Summer Camps?

Since yall say Outdoors only 

 

And How Many Summer Camp already set up tents...""Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched""

 

To be honest, I doubt my boys would pick a camp like that. They had the chance to do a camp back east that had cool cabins and they picked normal tents. I *do* think any type of open cabin or shelter should still count, but we follow the rules regardless of what I think. I've found that the boys will usually pick being outdoors than being in cabins when they have the chance. The only exception was winter camping when they did not have the option of snow shelters; only tents or cabins....they elected the latter.

[cyclops]

"I may break a rule from time to time but it is never intentional."

ROTFL

 

You ought to be a politician!

Edited December 6, 2015 by cyclops

[Krampus]

"I may break a rule from time to time but it is never intentional."

ROTFL

 

You ought to be a politician!

 

Case in point: The guys used water balloons at summer camp. Never thought BSA would be so obtuse as to deny the guys a chance to have fun using those unless they were s prescribed size and no bigger. Found out we were in violation of BSA rules. My fault. I take the blame. Did not do it intentionally, but geesh, who would have ever thought that was "illegal" for Boy Scouts.

 

It's not like we violated two-deep, make up our own requirements, policies or rules. So you can be snarky if you like, but when you look at the "rules" that we may violate unintentionally they are the more inane and obscure rules of BSA that 99% of Scouters would have no clue about.

[cyclops]

LOL, you don't need to explain yourself to me - I commend your latent 'flexible' tendencies. The uptight, selfrighteous crowd might think differently.

[Stosh]

There still are camps out there that when the boys show up, the tents and dining flies are all rolled up nicely ready to be set up for the week.  Still others are draped for summer over pole frames on wooden decks.  With those camps, one might as well have a cabin.

[JoeBob]

Common sense, please.

 

A 3 sided structure lakeside with built in bunks and pads?  That's not an Adirondack, it's a cabin with an improved fart remover.

A 3 sided structure perched on the side of a mountain on the AT, with no level ground anywhere for a tent?   With 2 inch cracks between the floorboards for the mice play?  That's an Adirondack, and I'll count that night for your camping merit badge.

 

What about my boys that swing a hammock?  It's not 'under the stars' because of their rain-covers. They're not in a 'tent' that they 'pitched themselves', but I'm going to allow those camping nights to be added to their total.

 

If it's rustic, outdoors, and challenging the boys outside of their usual comfort zone, it's camping.  If it's an artificial environment created to make them feel like they are still at home, it's not camping.

[Torchwood]

I'm with JoeBob on this one.