Camping MB and long-term camp

[NJCubScouter]

Wilson, please try your post again, it should work now.

[Wilson-KY]

Thank you - here's the post (no longer in an invisible font!):

 

Need the group's help on this one. Scout went to summer camp for the full week in year one. In year two Scout attended three days/nights. Camping MB says "you may use a week of long-term camp toward this requirement." We have varying opinions if the days/nights in year two can be counted, because it wasn't "a week." MB also says all campouts since becoming a Scout may count toward the requirement, which may also be causing confusion.

 

So do the days in week two count toward the MB requirement? Scout met the other requirements to count these days, as he was at camp each day and night and slept in a tent.

 

Thanks.

[qwazse]

I'd count them if I were the kid's MBC.

[skeptic]

Intent is to NOT have a boy never camp except for a week of Summer Camp.  I have always given 2 days and nights for additional weeks at summer camp, as long as the scout is active regularly.  

[qwazse]

More here: http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/06/24/ask-expert-isnt-camping-night-camping-mb/

This source says that the other long term trips don't count at all. Taken to extreme, scouts could be motivated to just go home mid-week and gnome back the next day ... Thus getting at least 5 nights out of each summer camp!

@@skeptic's approach could allow a boy to get six nights out of the first summer camp and the remaining 14 out of the next seven.

 

I doubt that any counselor has crossed paths with such extreme cases.

Edited December 4, 2015 by qwazse

[Hedgehog]

More here: http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/06/24/ask-expert-isnt-camping-night-camping-mb/

This source says that the other long term trips don't count at all. Taken to extreme, scouts could be motivated to just go home mid-week and gnome back the next day ... Thus getting at least 5 nights out of each summer camp!

@@skeptic's approach could allow a boy to get six nights out of the first summer camp and the remaining 14 out of the next seven.

 

I doubt that any counselor has crossed paths with such extreme cases.

 

Qwazse is correct.  You can count one full week at summer camp.  Full weeks or partial weeks in subsequent years do not count AT ALL.  I suspect the intent is to expose scouts to a number of different experiences.  Weekend camping is different than summer camp.  Also, this permits for a number of camping experiences -- rather than 3 summer camps and one weekend campout a scout is required to do one summer camp and seven weekend camping trips.  The first words of the requirement are "show experience in camping..." and I agree that the more trips a scout goes on the more experience they get.

 

I had actually looked at this a couple of weeks back because I was counting nights for scouts who are working on the camping merit badge with me.  I knew that summer camp only counted once and I knew that rustic cabin camping (i.e. sleeping a cabin with no plumbing and only a pot belly stove when it is 15  degrees outside) didn't count.  

 

However, I was surprised to find that BSA interprets the long-term rule to include treks like a 50 miler or Philmont or another week long adventure where you camp in tents.  A scout who camped out five nights (four in trail shelters and one in a tent) while we were doing our 50 miler could not have those nights count at all because he had already counted his nights at summer camp.  A good chance to teach a scout that even rules you disagree with should be followed.  The GOOD NEWS is that any nights camping count toward the Outdoor Achievement Award for Camping.   So I was able to tell this scout that when he fulfiled the 20 nights for the Camping MB he will be at 37 nights (two more summer camps and a 5 day trek) -- enough for the award and only needing 13 more nights to get the Gold device.

[Krampus]

Need the group's help on this one. Scout went to summer camp for the full week in year one. In year two Scout attended three days/nights. Camping MB says "you may use a week of long-term camp toward this requirement." We have varying opinions if the days/nights in year two can be counted, because it wasn't "a week." MB also says all campouts since becoming a Scout may count toward the requirement, which may also be causing confusion.

 

So do the days in week two count toward the MB requirement? Scout met the other requirements to count these days, as he was at camp each day and night and slept in a tent.

 

 

Everyone has posted the party line:

• Only one long-term camp counts, ever.
• Camping must be outdoors. Nothing indoors counts, ever.
• Must be under the stars, tent you pitch or tent pitched for you (e.g., summer camp). Shelters of any kind do not count.
• Must be scouting events. Cannot be dad/son camping unless it is part of a unit, district, council, national, international or other formal scouting event.
• Clock starts when they become a scout and ends when they turn 18. Camping done for scouts what meets the above restrictions during that time counts.
• Note said, but you CAN apply the nights used for the Camping MB for OA eligibility.

[Stosh]

One cannot count the 9 days of Philmont if they have already taken the five days of summer camp.  Nor does any of the 7 days of BWCA count nor the week long RAGBRAI bike hike.

 

If one has to count to the nth degree the days of camping to get the MB, then one is not camping enough to begin with.  The original camping MB required 50 nights of camping.  I guess they had to dumb down the requirements to get the boys the patch.... kinda sad.

[skeptic]

Intent is to NOT have a boy never camp except for a week of Summer Camp.  I have always given 2 days and nights for additional weeks at summer camp, as long as the scout is active regularly.  

Please note that I only credit scouts who are regularly active, which will include other camping, hikes, and consistent attendance in meetings and service and so on.  Like any of these things, it is really subjective.  Summer camps now often offer special activities that take the boys out of camp back packing or to other more remote sites, usually for older scouts.  I also had to break the bad news to a few scouts one year that when they chose cabins at a summer camp, instead of tent sites, they lost the camping credit, though most already had the long term anyway.  Same with skiing trips with cabins and such.  Had some scouts take tents to a ski trip one year and sleep outside, just to get the credit.  No worse for wear, and even seemed to have fun.  We used to be able to visit Vandenburg and stay in the gym; that too did not count for camping; but Edwards did when we stayed at their old, now gone, scout camp called South Track.  Make rational decisions that are honest and fair and try not to be frozen by doing so.  That is why you are called a leader.

[Eagle94-A1]

 

• Must be under the stars, tent you pitch or tent pitched for you (e.g., summer camp). Shelters of any kind do not count.

 

Not to be a pain, but my understanding was that shelters a scout build DID count, i.e. survival shelters?

[Krampus]

Not to be a pain, but my understanding was that shelters a scout build DID count, i.e. survival shelters?

 

Good point. I usually think of shelters as Adirondacks or other such pre-built shelters.

 

Survival and snow shelters count.

[Krampus]

Please note that I only credit scouts who are regularly active, which will include other camping, hikes, and consistent attendance in meetings and service and so on. 

 

How do you measure "regularly active" against the definition of "active" in the GTA? Since there's not BSA standard that defines "active" in terms of % of events attended, etc., I am curious how you measure that given no measurement standard.

[skeptic]

Let's remember that as adults we should be able to do this without making it hard.  National has come out with their definitions, but reality is that you are at the troop level and should be able to make a fair, but reasonable decision about actual activity.  Why can't we simple make this kind of decision and stop making it harder than necessary?  Sure, occasionally someone will really corrupt the intent, but mostly it will be rational and make sense if we simply decide based on the general guideline.  

 

Again, if you are a leader; be one.  Make decisions that are sensible and fair, and that attempt to adhere to the basic intent of the challenge or requirement.  Why is this so hard?  

[Krampus]

Let's remember that as adults we should be able to do this without making it hard.  National has come out with their definitions, but reality is that you are at the troop level and should be able to make a fair, but reasonable decision about actual activity.  Why can't we simple make this kind of decision and stop making it harder than necessary?  Sure, occasionally someone will really corrupt the intent, but mostly it will be rational and make sense if we simply decide based on the general guideline.  

 

Again, if you are a leader; be one.  Make decisions that are sensible and fair, and that attempt to adhere to the basic intent of the challenge or requirement.  Why is this so hard?  

 

It is hard because when you set your own arbitrary level of what "active" means you are establishing your own definition and now using what national gives you. The GTA does not give you any specific level to determine what active means, they simply say:

1. A Scout is Registered: That means as long as he pays his dues he's active. Does not mean he has to attend ANYTHING!
2. A Scout is in Good Standing: As long as he has not violated any BSA rules or been dismissed for behavior he's considered active. This good standing is in all scouting activities whether local, regional, national or international. Again, does not have to attend anything, just needs to be paid up and not on anyone's naughty list.
3. The Unit Activity Level Is Defined in Policy: The Scout meets the unit’s reasonable expectations; or, if not, a lesser level of activity is explained. If not, the scout can use the "alternative explanation" to define his level of activity.

However, they *do* allow units to set what they call "the unit's reasonable expectations" for being active. ONLY if you have a stated policy can you apply this "standard", otherwise their inactivity can be explained by the "alternative" to the third criteria. Essentially, if the scout can point to demonstrating scouting's values in ANOTHER activity then a unit's board must accept that as being "active" for the purposes of BSA membership.

 

So, let's say it is December and Tom wants his Life BOR. Tom has not been to a single meeting or camp out. Tom has paid his dues, kept his nose clean and been very active in school government, football, german club and national honor society. UNLESS your unit has a STATED policy about what constitutes "active" in your unit you MUST consider Tom an active scout and afford him all the benefits of a member....which means he sits for his BOR.

[Hedgehog]

Please note that I only credit scouts who are regularly active, which will include other camping, hikes, and consistent attendance in meetings and service and so on.  Like any of these things, it is really subjective. 

 

That really doesn't matter if they are active.  One long-term camp can only be counted for the 25 nights for the Camping Merit Badge.  If they participate in long-term camping it counts the first time.  If they participate in long-term camping a second time -- whether it be summer camp, Philmont, a 50 miler or a 5 night canoeing trip IT DOES NOT COUNT.  There is no discretion.  It is not subjective.

 

A scout is obedient.  A good scout leader is obedient.  What you are doing is not leadership, but setting a bad example by ignoring rules you don't like for scouts that you do like.

 

Further, 25 NIGHTS SHOULD NOT BE DIFFICULT TO OBTAIN.  Since my son joined the troop, we've had 52 nights of camping in less than three years!  Of those 23 are long-term and 29 are one or two night trips.  So by the middle of 8th grade, a scout could easily get the 25 nights for camping (6 summer camp and 19 on other trips) with missing five trips (i.e. 10 nights camping).  My son had his 25 nights a little over two years from joining (plus 2 nights cabin camping and an additional 6 nights at summer camp that didn't count.

 

If your boys have to go to summer camp to get nights, what are they doing the other 11 months of the year?