Girls Just Wanna Be Cub Scouts

[Eagle94-A1]

Need to add to my post about female leaders being detrimental to  Boy Scout troops.   Thinking about it, those leaders involved with Boy Scout troops usually had involvement with Girl Scouts as a youth. While I don't know much about Girl Scouts, I do know they focus a lot on badges. And those units with heavy female involvement tend to focus more on badges, and less on outing. Sad when 4 weekend campout and summer camp is all that is required for a troop be qualify for Bronze JTE.

[Stosh]

Kinda strange the Finns have co-ed except for about 3 years.  Kinda makes one wonder if it's a token gesture at best.  It also breaks up the continuity of friendships as well.

 

Maybe BSA out to run a Cub/Boy Scout program which is male only and then a parallel co-ed program under a different name, i.e. Explorers/Venturers, but same outdoor type programming so that one can have a true choice in the matter from the CO's down to the individual scout.  This would open the door for increased membership, more uniform sales, patches, literature, etc. and the BSA could make a fortune off of it.

[maryread]

 

Maryread,

 

At the moment, you are experiencing Cub Scouts. When your son hits Boy Scouts, it will be a HUGE (emphasis) difference. Cub Scouts focuses on family outings and family involvement. Boy Scouts is completely different. Boy Scouts focuses on individual growth and independence. In my experience, parents have a harder time adjusting to Boy Scouts than the boys themselves.  Worst offenders are former Cub Scout leaders who cross over. They have spent anywhere from 1-5+ years doing stuff and being in charge, and the former CS leader needs to be "deprogrammed" as one friend calls it, or "Unlearn what you have learned" as Master Yoda puts it. Even those of us who know better have a hard time.  Just as I had to adjust from working with Boy Scouts to Cub Scouts ( a lot easier transition I might add) I had to adjust working with Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts. Heck just this weekend I had to get an recently crossed over leader away from members of his old den who were screwing up putting up a tent. 

 

Regarding females in Scouting, there will be changes, and it will be detrimental to the boys in the program. Yes there are a few great female Scout leaders. I've had the pleasure to work with them. But they are less than 1% of the female leader population. Someone pointed out to me the decline in standards since the introduction of female SMs and ASMs in the late 80s/early 90s. While I personally think OPERATION FIRST CLASS is the biggest reason for the decline in standards, after observing units with large numbers of females in leadership positions, I do believe that has been a factor.  I also believe having adult male leaders, growing up in the 1970s "Improved Scouting Program" which took OUTING out of Scouting by not requiring a camping program is another factor.

 

I don't doubt this. Just because we have lots of female leaders in our pack, it doesn't make it better. That's just how it's worked out, we have a real hard time getting anyone to volunteer. Although that may be in part to the current CM's lack of trying (I'm due to take over in April, I've already filled 3 positions that have been vacant for the past year) I'm definitely the most adventurous out of our group. I've had so much push back just by trying to get the pack to use mess kits vs. disposable paper products. The kids don't help with cooking or cleaning up after meals. They're very coddled.

 

But yes, I'm in Cub Scouts, and have yet to experience Boy Scouts. I can understand how keeping them separated at an older age would be beneficial, but I see no reason why doing so in Cub Scouts is necessary. Keep dens unisex, pack co-ed.

[maryread]

 

Maybe BSA out to run a Cub/Boy Scout program which is male only and then a parallel co-ed program under a different name, i.e. Explorers/Venturers, but same outdoor type programming so that one can have a true choice in the matter from the CO's down to the individual scout.  This would open the door for increased membership, more uniform sales, patches, literature, etc. and the BSA could make a fortune off of it.

 

 

Sounds like a great idea.

[Stosh]

Need to add to my post about female leaders being detrimental to  Boy Scout troops.   Thinking about it, those leaders involved with Boy Scout troops usually had involvement with Girl Scouts as a youth. While I don't know much about Girl Scouts, I do know they focus a lot on badges. And those units with heavy female involvement tend to focus more on badges, and less on outing. Sad when 4 weekend campout and summer camp is all that is required for a troop be qualify for Bronze JTE.

 

@@Eagle94-A1, regardless of one's background, the problem is more social in nature.  My wife is a forester by training, she worked in the US Forestry Department in Alaska for many years.  She raised 4 kids, 3 girls and one boy all of which worked their way through college commercial fishing in the salmon industry.  She's an avid camper, and besides knitting, she whitewater kayaks just about every week in the summer.  We had a mild winter back a couple of years ago and she got kayaking in for 18 months straight and we're talking Wisconsin/Minnesota here.  There's no doubt she can run rings around most SM's out there today.  But she's the first to admit that the dynamics between her and kids and myself and kids is worlds apart.

[Stosh]

Sounds like a great idea.

  One's gotta remember that this guy Stosh on the forum uses sarcasm a lot.

 

One really doesn't need BSA to be making a fortune on something that is far easier to do than what most people think.

 

Seriously - it is my belief that the social dynamics behind co-ed scouting is more political agenda posturing than actually looking out for what is in the best interest of the youth.   If one wants a one-size-fits-all to the upbringing of our young people, then it is the responsibility of those believing that to act on their beliefs, but it is probably a more honest approach to develop their own program from scratch, designed specifically for those co-ed beliefs rather than simply hijacking someone else's program because they didn't want to put in the effort to do it themselves.

 

The litmus test in any political posturing is to reverse the polarity and see if it still floats.  What if there was a movement for boys to join Girl Scouts and began pressing them go co-ed.  I would venture to guess there would be a political backlash far louder than girls usurping the boy's program.  One can always see the hypocrisy a lot better doing this. 

 

I have had great success running a outdoor co-ed youth program through churches.  Raise some money, buy some equipment, and go camping.  Take a BSHB along for reference.  One doesn't need to be a registered scouter to buy BSA literature.  As a matter of fact I have taught MB classes to many different groups out there.   The last one I did was orienteering for a group of older lady kayakers.   I didn't even need to be a registered MB counselor, no back ground check, no 2-deep, and with the group being all female, I didn't even need a female adviser along.  Bought the books, used my maps and compasses, had fun teaching, the ladies appreciated it and it cost them the price of the book and a Saturday afternoon after paddling a river in the morning.    Being the instructor I got to go on the paddle for free!  ..... and the best thing about it, I didn't need to hijack BSA to do it.

 

The best course I ever taught was the Cooking MB where 3 guys who couldn't cook paid my way to Canada for a week of fishing so I could teach them how to cook the fish on the open fire.  I almost felt guilty for taking such advantage of them.... I got over it.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Stosh

[Eagle94-A1]

A few comments on the Finns.

 

1) I may have gotten the ages wrong. It's been 21 years.    But essentially the Cub and Older Scout programs are coed.

2) Reason why they separate for Scout age youth is two fold: a) is to keep the traditional Scout and Guide titles and rank structure b) all boys and all girl units do better than coed at that age. Unless things have changed, the Finnish association's emblem is a Cross with the  FDL and Trefoil emblems at the points.

 

Stosh,

 

18 months of kayaking! OUTSTANDING!

 

As for social dynamics,  there is some of that. I know I was talking to middle son's WDL, whom the wife is AWDL for. Long story short, the comment made is that she does tend to "mother" them a bit, and the WDL has to tell her to wait and let them try. She readily admits that she is still in "Cub" mode, and "mothers" them too much. She is working on that. Especially since the WDL is moving back to Tigers come June 1st. Wife is trying to resist being WDL, but "it's only an hour a week for 6 months."

 

An aside, I think this is the biggest difference between my pack and some others in our area. In my pack we start the transition process to Boy Scouts as soon as they become Webelos. Most packs start it in March of Webelos, it not later, and that is due to preparing for Webeloree. Looking at the scores for the past 3 years, my pack has come out either first or second. And it's usually the uniform inspection that separates us from 1st or 2nd. At the Webeloree this year, we had leaders helping the Cubs load the catapults, assisting in transporting the catapults, etc. Stuff the Cubs were suppose to be able to do by themselves.  Only thing the WDL did was stake down the catapult. And that was after the judge said it would be OK to do that since we were on rocky ground, and even the adults had a hard time staking it down.

 

I think part of the issue with my troop's NSP is that some of the Scouts have been doing patrol method for a year or longer before coming to the troop, whereas others have had less than that, if any. 

[maryread]

  One's gotta remember that this guy Stosh on the forum uses sarcasm a lot.

 

One really doesn't need BSA to be making a fortune on something that is far easier to do than what most people think.

 

Seriously - it is my belief that the social dynamics behind co-ed scouting is more political agenda posturing than actually looking out for what is in the best interest of the youth.   If one wants a one-size-fits-all to the upbringing of our young people, then it is the responsibility of those believing that to act on their beliefs, but it is probably a more honest approach to develop their own program from scratch, designed specifically for those co-ed beliefs rather than simply hijacking someone else's program because they didn't want to put in the effort to do it themselves.

 

The litmus test in any political posturing is to reverse the polarity and see if it still floats.  What if there was a movement for boys to join Girl Scouts and began pressing them go co-ed.  I would venture to guess there would be a political backlash far louder than girls usurping the boy's program.  One can always see the hypocrisy a lot better doing this. 

 

I have had great success running a outdoor co-ed youth program through churches.  Raise some money, buy some equipment, and go camping.  Take a BSHB along for reference.  One doesn't need to be a registered scouter to buy BSA literature.  As a matter of fact I have taught MB classes to many different groups out there.   The last one I did was orienteering for a group of older lady kayakers.   I didn't even need to be a registered MB counselor, no back ground check, no 2-deep, and with the group being all female, I didn't even need a female adviser along.  Bought the books, used my maps and compasses, had fun teaching, the ladies appreciated it and it cost them the price of the book and a Saturday afternoon after paddling a river in the morning.    Being the instructor I got to go on the paddle for free!  ..... and the best thing about it, I didn't need to hijack BSA to do it.

 

 

I understand what you're saying. And to be honest, the making money part of your suggestion was the biggest turn off, but I have a feeling it would be encouraging to BSA to follow through with it.

 

I've actually been building my own handbook. I'm technically chartered through BPSA but it's been tough working through them, I can't get ahold of anyone in the central organization for information. So will probably be moving forward as an independent group. Plus I'd prefer to not have to follow male/female leader requirement for co-ed groups. But BSA is a great organization. And to be fair, BSA is awarded special privileges in this country (even allows them to discriminate). They have the resources and support to produce the program that they do. I can pour my heart out into building a program but doubt it would ever be as appealing to youth and parents as BSA is.

 

Why not start something similar to explorers/venturers for younger kids?

PS- your wife sounds like my hero

[Stosh]

I understand what you're saying. And to be honest, the making money part of your suggestion was the biggest turn off, but I have a feeling it would be encouraging to BSA to follow through with it.

 

I've actually been building my own handbook. I'm technically chartered through BPSA but it's been tough working through them, I can't get ahold of anyone in the central organization for information. So will probably be moving forward as an independent group. Plus I'd prefer to not have to follow male/female leader requirement for co-ed groups. But BSA is a great organization. And to be fair, BSA is awarded special privileges in this country (even allows them to discriminate). They have the resources and support to produce the program that they do. I can pour my heart out into building a program but doubt it would ever be as appealing to youth and parents as BSA is.

 

Why not start something similar to explorers/venturers for younger kids?

PS- your wife sounds like my hero

She's mine too.

 

There's pros and cons for working with BSA and working without BSA.  Whenever I have something like your situation where you might feel co-ed is important for your kids, then just focus on them.  Don't try to save the world, just one little bit to start and see where it goes.  BP did it that way. 

 

I should also add her children?  One's an MD in residency right now, another holds a doctorate in bio-mechanical and does research (she also qualified last weekend for the Boston Marathon), another is international business consultant and the boy is an electrical-mechanical engineering currently in the cell phone business.  Wanna see pictures of my 3 FEMALE granddaughters!   

Edited March 16, 2016 by Stosh

[maryread]

She's mine too.

 

There's pros and cons for working with BSA and working without BSA.  Whenever I have something like your situation where you might feel co-ed is important for your kids, then just focus on them.  Don't try to save the world, just one little bit to start and see where it goes.  BP did it that way. 

 

Yeah, but if I don't try and save the world, who will?

 

In all seriousness though, I can't help thinking of myself as a child. Unless there is someone like me offering co-ed scouting type programs all over, there will be girls missing out on the experiences. BSA groups are everywhere.

[maryread]

 

 

I should also add her children?  One's an MD in residency right now, another holds a doctorate in bio-mechanical and does research (she also qualified last weekend for the Boston Marathon), another is international business consultant and the boy is an electrical-mechanical engineering currently in the cell phone business.  Wanna see pictures of my 3 FEMALE granddaughters! 

 

Very impressive   Great to hear she'll be in the marathon! The starting line is a just a couple of miles from our house, we watch it every year.  â€‹ â€‹

[Stosh]

Yeah, but if I don't try and save the world, who will?

 

In all seriousness though, I can't help thinking of myself as a child. Unless there is someone like me offering co-ed scouting type programs all over, there will be girls missing out on the experiences. BSA groups are everywhere.

 

Growing up I had a bad experience in Boy Scouts.  The unit was very poorly run.  I was an avid camper long before I was even in scouting.  I never got beyond 2nd class after 4 years.  What I decided to do as an adult was do scouting right for the boys so that they wouldn't have to endure the problems I did.  In your case,   After 35+ years of promoting Boy-led, Patrol-method, I still see units out there that ignore the most basic principles of BSA and end up running units like I had as a youth.  I may not save the world, but for the boys that come through the units I work with, at least they have the opportunity that I didn't have as a kid.

 

it sounds like you are trying to do the same thing.  It will work and you will champion it for others along the way.  You may end up saving the world after all.

[qwazse]

... Maybe BSA out to run a Cub/Boy Scout program which is male only and then a parallel co-ed program under a different name, i.e. Explorers/Venturers, but same outdoor type programming so that one can have a true choice in the matter from the CO's down to the individual scout.  This would open the door for increased membership, more uniform sales, patches, literature, etc. and the BSA could make a fortune off of it.

In practical terms, I could see a roll-out via "local option" ...

CO's who want their BSA program in the form of a

• unit exclusive to boys would have "Cubs"
• unit exclusive to girls would have "Cub-ettes"
• a co-ed unit would have "Cubs-plus"

This would allow the chips to fall where they may. It's consistent with what I've learned about Central European models ... which may have one unit of each type in a district.

It could also allow councils to develop facilities for various types of day camps.

 

The big question becomes this:

 

Let's say that, with or without the BSA, @@maryread, the mom in the article that started this thread, and one hundred others form associations of girls (and their siblings) who build those PWD cars at age 8, learn flag protocol at age 10, camp monthly at age 11, master first class skills at age 12, hike and camp independently at age 13 ... maybe to the tune of 400 patrols in the next few years.

 

Why wouldn't we want those 2400 to wear our 1st Class badge, O/A sashes, and be with us at HA bases and National Jamboree?

[maryread]

In practical terms, I could see a roll-out via "local option" ...

CO's who want their BSA program in the form of a

• unit exclusive to boys would have "Cubs"
• unit exclusive to girls would have "Cub-ettes"
• a co-ed unit would have "Cubs-plus"

This would allow the chips to fall where they may. It's consistent with what I've learned about Central European models ... which may have one unit of each type in a district.

It could also allow councils to develop facilities for various types of day camps.

 

The big question becomes this:

 

Let's say that, with or without the BSA, @@maryread, the mom in the article that started this thread, and one hundred others form associations of girls (and their siblings) who build those PWD cars at age 8, learn flag protocol at age 10, camp monthly at age 11, master first class skills at age 12, hike and camp independently at age 13 ... maybe to the tune of 400 patrols in the next few years.

 

Why wouldn't we want those 2400 to wear our 1st Class badge, O/A sashes, and be with us at HA bases and National Jamboree?

 

Funny thing is the pack in the article thought they were doing everything above board. When they started piloting the Lion program years back they had been wrongly informed that it was part of the Learning for Life program (co-ed), and had a girl interested and signed her up. When it was time for the boys to move up to Cub Scouts, they did, she didn't. She would still do everything with the pack. They came up with a plan for LFL groups to work in conjunction with Packs and Troops, and had this plan approved by their Area. They had been functioning as an independent den within the pack.  I'm unclear of exactly what happened but someone higher up got wind and it's ending very soon. Most likely because it gained attention and the BSA needed to take a public stance on the matter. So the thought of co-ed isn't absurd, it's something that's actually been approved by an Area. It's worked.

Edited March 16, 2016 by maryread

[Stosh]

 

Why wouldn't we want those 2400 to wear our 1st Class badge, O/A sashes, and be with us at HA bases and National Jamboree?

 

Why not be honest about it and then not call it BOY Scouts of America. For me, the use of the Boy Scouts of America branding is what the co-ed group wants.  @[member="maryread" alluded to this when the idea of another group wouldn't have the prestige of BSA and the 100+ year reputation it has garnered.  For me, personally, I would find it a lot easier to hijack someone else's reputation than try it on my own.  If it works, fine, if it doesn't, one at least gets some free press out of it.

 

Like I said, starting a co-ed outdoor youth ministry is a lot easier for the kids in my area than trying to take on the whole of the BSA to get a Pack charter with the BSA logo on it.  I can provide exactly the same program for them as I now do for my cub aged counterparts..