It must be a long road to convert to Boy Led...

[blw2]

A few of us did our first WEBELOS to Troop visit last night.

It didn't go well, but that's another topic....

 

After the meeting, I was thinking about something I have read many times here and elsewhere....

You know how it goes, a parent complains about a troop not being boy led, or using the patrol method, or whatever....

So the advice, especially to a new SM, is to step up and make the change.

 

So i was thinking about this after our meeting last night.

 

For a new parent, who's son is just joining a troop, that must be a very long road to hike....!

 

This troop was I'm sure in the mind of the leaders IS doing the boy led thing.... but I asked several questions that made it clear that it's the "Scoutmasters" that make the decisions, make the plan.... oh, they probably let the boys pick their menu, but the adults even drive in some cases when a boy will work on a merit badge....

 

Now this is a troop to which I have zero connections.  It's not my CO's troop, I don't know the players....

 

So I was thinking if my son were to join....

it would likely be some time before I could ever even find a spot on the committee to fill

and it would be even longer before I could begin to change the patrol method boy led culture of the troop....

likely a very long time if it was even possible at all.

 

so meanwhile my son would then become one of the older scouts that is resisting the change when it finally would hit....

He would miss the opportunity that i want for him in a truly boy led troop.

 

We'll visit the more likely troop for him soon, my CO's troop....but my suspicion is that they will in at least some ways be similar.

 

It seems like an impossible situation to change.... for my son anyway.

 

I find this very discouraging.

[Krampus]

Every troop will have *some level* of perceived or real adult over involvement. That's the nature of the beast.

 

I've left the decision to my son. He had a list of things he was looking for and so did I. He visited 9+ troops. He knew immediately which one he liked. They were not as boy-led as I would have liked but they hit on nearly all the other key points.

 

Knowing how you feel, I can tell you our unit is ALWAYS open to change. Too many parents either don't care OR want to help but want their ideas heard. We try to make it clear during recruiting that, just because we've always done things that way does not not mean we are not open to new ideas.

[Stosh]

@@blw2

 

Does your boy find this very discouraging, too?  or are you falling into the same trap as the leaders of the troop?    Start with your boy and work from there.  You can always drive from the backseat.   I find as UC many SM's who think they are running "boy-led" programs that really aren't.  Those most likely fall into the boy-run category, but still led by the adults.  

 

Remember, you don't need to be registered to ask questions.

 

No matter what troop YOUR SON decides to go with, you still need to do an "exit" interview with the units your son passes on.  Let him identify his reasons for not picking their troop so that they have a chance to know what perception they are giving in their recruiting efforts.  Not many people take the time to be honest about the process, they just disappear without a word.  Every boy that has left my troop I have sought out why.  Not having fun, too much work, I don't like bugs, etc.  But I know and therefore I can work on the things that the boys in the troop can change.

 

One of the things that will help your son is the fact that there are things in the program he can contribute to as far as making it better.  Do you wish your son to have an ideal troop and there's nothing there to challenge him to make it better?

 

One thing that is vital to this choice of your son, don't let your discouragement become known to him.  He might become discouraged as well and simply give up on scouting altogether.  Not good!

[Sentinel947]

Volunteer to help. Make friends with the adults involved. Take Training. Seek to educate. At the end of the day, those of us (like myself) who are not the SM or the CC have to assist the SM and the CC in delivering the program. Sometimes that requires us to make a gut check as to whether we can really support the kind of program they want to run. 

[perdidochas]

A few of us did our first WEBELOS to Troop visit last night.

It didn't go well, but that's another topic....

 

After the meeting, I was thinking about something I have read many times here and elsewhere....

You know how it goes, a parent complains about a troop not being boy led, or using the patrol method, or whatever....

So the advice, especially to a new SM, is to step up and make the change.

 

So i was thinking about this after our meeting last night.

 

For a new parent, who's son is just joining a troop, that must be a very long road to hike....!

 

This troop was I'm sure in the mind of the leaders IS doing the boy led thing.... but I asked several questions that made it clear that it's the "Scoutmasters" that make the decisions, make the plan.... oh, they probably let the boys pick their menu, but the adults even drive in some cases when a boy will work on a merit badge....

 

Now this is a troop to which I have zero connections.  It's not my CO's troop, I don't know the players....

 

So I was thinking if my son were to join....

it would likely be some time before I could ever even find a spot on the committee to fill

and it would be even longer before I could begin to change the patrol method boy led culture of the troop....

likely a very long time if it was even possible at all.

 

so meanwhile my son would then become one of the older scouts that is resisting the change when it finally would hit....

He would miss the opportunity that i want for him in a truly boy led troop.

 

We'll visit the more likely troop for him soon, my CO's troop....but my suspicion is that they will in at least some ways be similar.

 

It seems like an impossible situation to change.... for my son anyway.

 

I find this very discouraging.

 

Well, my troop (I'm an ASM) is pretty much boy led, but there are still some adult led aspects to it. You aren't going to find perfection. What you need to do is find a troop that your son likes that isn't overly adult led. 

[Stosh]

Boy-led, patrol-method vs. adult-led, troop-method are two polar opposites with a ton of variances in between.   One isn't going to find many at the extremes, just a bit more so one way or the other when comparing the various troops.

 

So on a scale of 1 to 10, with adult-led at 1 and boy-led at 10, where does the troop fall?  

 

Now with that being said, that number isn't locked in stone.  The troops are in constant flux as well.  There may be an 10 adult-led troop out there that just took on a new SM who is passionate about boy-led.  That 10 won't hold up for very long.  The troop will begin to slide up the scale over time.  So that factor is also important and one isn't going to see that particular change with a one time visit to the troop.

 

At one time I had two units within a mile of each other that I was UC for.  One was working hard on boy-led and showing progress over two year's time.  The other was majorly adult-led and was on the verge of collapsing.  I offered to take over because none of the multitude of adult registered leaders wanted to be SM.  I said was boy-led and they took a pass, I recommended another scouter that had strong boy-led tendencies as well,  They said no to him and let the troop collapse.  They moved all the boys over to my other UC troop and with them the adults.  Within 6 months they had erased all the efforts of the SM's boy-led efforts and the troop was showing signs of stress.  I.e. boys focusing on their Eagle requirements looking for an early exit and other boys just sitting there waiting for the adults to come up with the next big project.  Their high adventure trip they had been planning for this summer fell apart when the boys en mass decided they didn't want to go after 18 months of planning and preparation that was being changed by the adults.

 

Never judge a unit by a single snapshot in time.2-3 visits over a month or two might not even be enough time to really get to know the unit and the direction it is traveling with the program.

[blw2]

@@blw2

 

Does your boy find this very discouraging, too?  or are you falling into the same trap as the leaders of the troop?    Start with your boy and work from there.  You can always drive from the backseat.   I find as UC many SM's who think they are running "boy-led" programs that really aren't.  Those most likely fall into the boy-run category, but still led by the adults.  

 

Remember, you don't need to be registered to ask questions.

 

No matter what troop YOUR SON decides to go with, you still need to do an "exit" interview with the units your son passes on.  Let him identify his reasons for not picking their troop so that they have a chance to know what perception they are giving in their recruiting efforts.  Not many people take the time to be honest about the process, they just disappear without a word.  Every boy that has left my troop I have sought out why.  Not having fun, too much work, I don't like bugs, etc.  But I know and therefore I can work on the things that the boys in the troop can change.

 

One of the things that will help your son is the fact that there are things in the program he can contribute to as far as making it better.  Do you wish your son to have an ideal troop and there's nothing there to challenge him to make it better?

 

One thing that is vital to this choice of your son, don't let your discouragement become known to him.  He might become discouraged as well and simply give up on scouting altogether.  Not good!

Well no, I wouldn't say he finds it discouraging.  He doesn't really have the depth to think about it in those terms.  He just knows that it was a strange pace, strange setting that he doesn't know, a bunch of people he didn't know, and the boys didn't make him feel welcome.... but objectively I'll say that a big part of that is his own fault for acting so shy.

 

Volunteer to help. Make friends with the adults involved. Take Training. Seek to educate. At the end of the day, those of us (like myself) who are not the SM or the CC have to assist the SM and the CC in delivering the program. Sometimes that requires us to make a gut check as to whether we can really support the kind of program they want to run. 

 

Well I think this is sort of the rub.  You have to support the program as it is, or as it develops, but I fear that by the time change can really take place it's too late for my son.....

What I'd like to see is an opportunity for my son to grow from the boy led patrol method.  I thoroughly understand it, in theory anyway and I feel that it would be a great thing for him. 

(And I should point out.... my thought process is more than just him.... this post is just a philosophical thought about any dad in my situation.)

 

Go to an adult led 1 to 5 on @@Stosh 's scale, and the boy will be ok as long as he has friends and they do fun stuff, but he won't have the growth potential.

 

oh, and @@Stosh, your comment about not judging based on a single snapshot.... valid point for sure

but I think you can tell more than a single point in time just by asking a few questions about past and future real workld events....as an example.

I asked several questions of both adults and scouts at the meeting.

About the trip they just took

and about a typical meeting

and about the meeting they were having (the entire troop split into two groups and were working on two merit badges that the adults decided to teach

 

They have patrols, but the patrols are shaken up and re-formed....at a time selected by the adults and reformed based on the adult needs..... so it's clearly not a patrol of boys that are friends....its not their choosing

and the trips and meeting agendas are adult driven

It was clearly a troop meeting and not patrols

patrols are formed ad hoc depending on the meeting or trip, even though they do have a patrol structure.

 

BUT, I'll give them credit that as a relatively new troop they had a good turn out and the boys seemed to be enjoying themselves..... and that is a big part of it!

[Stosh]

@@blw2

 

Obviously you are the ultimate decider as to what's best for your children.  No one should interfere with that.  You see the world more objectively and you have an understanding of what should be a good scout program.

 

Go to all of the troops a couple of times, then head out to the ice cream shop with your son (if he drinks coffee, then hit the coffee shop ), and have a long heart to heart with him on what he would like to have as his scouting career.  You can bring out the finer points of boy-led, patrol-method that he probably is totally unaware of and with it being just you and him, the shyness factor doesn't apply.  No pressure to have him decide on your timetable, let him mull it over.  Before he decides remind him that a bad decision is not the end of the world.  Scouting is meant to try out new things and take on new challenges so assure him you have his back if he makes the wrong choice.  Let him know this discussion can be started up again at any time he wishes.

 

If you are thinking about being a leader in his new troop, you had better start focusing in on treating your son as an adult.  Adult association means dealing with him as a peer, not a father, not a leader, but a peer.  When the two of you are at scouts, it's not father/son, and his chance to see what the adult world is all about.  THAT is a tough role to play, been there done that and it's hard to see your little one grow up in front of your eyes.  But at the end, it's a terrific feeling and worth the effort.  You're going to need to learn to interact with him as an adult eventually, might as well start now.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Stosh

[qwazse]

I assist the SM, so my ideas take a back seat. But I try to generate as many opportunities as possible for the boys to be more independent an responsible than they were last month.

 

All this stuff is a "two steps forward, one step back" kind of thing.

[TAHAWK]

Looking at troops in this area, it has been one step forward and two steps back.  

[Eagle94-A1]

Every situation is different.

 

I admit I'm frustrated at my son's troop at the moment. SPL after my son did NO planning and prep, and was very hard to communicate with. Trying to talk and mentor him was a challenge as he didn't seem to comprehend that he was in charge, he needed to plan stuff, he needed to organize meetings, etc.

 And when the SPL FINALLY started planning stuff, it was the same thing over and over for 3 weeks. So the SM SM ended up doing a lot, which was frustrating for me, and "boring" for the Scouts.

 

Hopefully new SPL  will do a better job. Seems to have his act together so far and is taking the bull by the horns. A little behind schedule planning wise, but I blame that on the old SPL.  We did the annual planning conference this week, and he had his act together, some input from the adults, usually recommending what places they know about that meet what they wanted to do..

 

I admit I'm doing more than I should. I gave the SPL a copy of the TROOP PROGRAM FEATURES and gave him a written model meeting with assignments and everything as an example. I also wrote out a week-by-week schedule based upon what they planned. For example 1-4-16 Pioneering week 2 meeting, 1-11-16 Pioneering Week 3 meeting, etc.Something that he and the PLC can use to plan and prep. And hopefully share with the next PLC so they can keep doing it so folks know well in advance what's going on.

[Hedgehog]

I agree that it is a long and hard road to get to a strong boy-led troop.  Our troop when I joined was boy led... well it was sort of boy led for the weekly meetings.  The outdoor program wasn't.  Being the new ASM on the block didn't keep me from objecting when the Troop committee planned the first couple of months of the outdoor program.  The next week, the new SM (who just took over), pulled me aside and said he agreed with me.  Since then, we've worked together to push the troop to being strongly boy-led.

 

The PLC now decides on the outings.  The adults used pack the gear in their cars.  First the scouts did it under the leadership of the SPL and now it is being done by patrol under the leadership of the PL and PQM.  I would do research regarding places to go and thing to do as part of the outdoor program (e.g. finding out where we could go whitewater rafting, finding trails where we could go backpacking) -- the boys are now starting to do that.  The adults handled the cooking for the Troop on the campouts.  We now do patrol based coooking with me advising the scouts who are doing the cooking via e-mail.  The advising role is going to be moved to the more senior scouts.  On outings, the adults told the scouts what to do.  Now, we camp 300 feet away and the boys are in charge.  At the last Court of Honor, the SM had the SPL run the program... not the adults.  

 

At our weekly meetings, the boys have always run things.  We break out into patrols and each patrol runs the troop portion of the meeting.  It is controlled chaos with the adults standing on the side of the room watching.  We don't do merit badges at meetings.  The boys teach the skills they want to using activities they come up with.

 

The key is the commitment to boy-led.  Those in charge need to be committed and those the adult leaders and the parents of the kids that join the troop need to be sold on it.  If you sell it to the adult leaders and the parents, they boys are easy.  The one thing we hear about the boys who join our troop is how much they like the fact that the meeting they attended was boy led.

 

It is a journey of taking many small steps forward.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Hedgehog

[TAHAWK]

Well done!

[MattR]

On Saturday night I was sitting at a campfire and I was honestly bored. Then I noticed the scouts were having a lot of fun yucking it up over something the older scouts were doing. That's when I realized I had had very little to do all day because the scouts were running everything. Not perfect by any means but they were running it. Sunday morning I gathered up the scouts running things and told them how great it was to see their progress.

 

It's been a long haul with not much to show before now. It's been 12 to 18 months. They certainly have a ways to go but I'm seeing progress. The older scouts are looking out for the troop. The Pls are looking out for their patrols. The PLs still struggle with planning but they finally seem to realize that they are responsible for their patrol. They at least want to lead. That's huge.

 

I'm also learning. My guess is if I knew what I was doing their learning curve wouldn't be so slow. Or maybe it's that when I started this the scouts that would listen were 12 years old and now they're 14 and patrol leaders. The old days of picking patrol leaders based on who needed a POR are beyond everyone's memory, even most of the adults.

 

Then there's also the scout-like way to deliver tough love. I had a scout thank me today for being such a hard ass.

[Rock Doc]

I agree that it is a long and hard road to get to a strong boy-led troop.  Our troop when I joined was boy led... well it was sort of boy led for the weekly meetings.  The outdoor program wasn't.  Being the new ASM on the block didn't keep me from objecting when the Troop committee planned the first couple of months of the outdoor program.  The next week, the new SM (who just took over), pulled me aside and said he agreed with me.  Since then, we've worked together to push the troop to being strongly boy-led.

 

The PLC now decides on the outings.  The adults used pack the gear in their cars.  First the scouts did it under the leadership of the SPL and now it is being done by patrol under the leadership of the PL and PQM.  I would do research regarding places to go and thing to do as part of the outdoor program (e.g. finding out where we could go whitewater rafting, finding trails where we could go backpacking) -- the boys are now starting to do that.  The adults handled the cooking for the Troop on the campouts.  We now do patrol based coooking with me advising the scouts who are doing the cooking via e-mail.  The advising role is going to be moved to the more senior scouts.  On outings, the adults told the scouts what to do.  Now, we camp 300 feet away and the boys are in charge.  At the last Court of Honor, the SM had the SPL run the program... not the adults.  

 

At our weekly meetings, the boys have always run things.  We break out into patrols and each patrol runs the troop portion of the meeting.  It is controlled chaos with the adults standing on the side of the room watching.  We don't do merit badges at meetings.  The boys teach the skills they want to using activities they come up with.

 

The key is the commitment to boy-led.  Those in charge need to be committed and those the adult leaders and the parents of the kids that join the troop need to be sold on it.  If you sell it to the adult leaders and the parents, they boys are easy.  The one thing we hear about the boys who join our troop is how much they like the fact that the meeting they attended was boy led.

 

It is a journey of taking many small steps forward.

This sounds very similar to how our troop functions today. As you said, it's a long journey of many small steps. But key to this journey for us was National Youth Leadership Training for senior scouts serving as PLs and SPLs. This training gives the SPL the extra boost and confidence to lead, assuming the adults keep their distance.