Outdoor Adventure Training - How Would You Do It?

[Stosh]

I'm not sure you can teach those skills -- it comes from a lifetime of learning. @@Hedgehog

 

New leaders don't have a lifetime to pull it together.  At least some training as to generally what to expect of OTHER PEOPE's experiences might be quite helpful to the newbies.  Instead, as you you propose, maybe it's a waste of time and so why try.  

 

I for one really don't like going on such activities with the potential for serious problems totally unprepared.  Doesn't sound very scout-like to me.

 

Solution?  Don't take the boys on high adventure, avoid the whole thing.... life is good.  And I can show plenty of examples in our council of that attitude.

[blw2]

The BSA looses more scouts during their first year (six months really) in the troop than any other age group. The reason, in so many words, was they didn't trust the boy run program. The shock of going from adult guidance for 11 years to boy guidance in just a few weeks is more than many boys can tolerate. THAT is the single biggest reason the New Boy Patrol was created.  

 

The problem stosh is there is a key step, or steps, missing between a new scouting walking in the door their first day and the advise of giving scouts the full responsibility for their program and activities. It doesn't do any good for adults looking for answers to leave that step out. Remember, you keep bragging that you have 40 something years as a scout leader. Many folks checking out this forum barely have four months. Hedgehog's and others here have some advice to helping the first day scout to a confident independent scout setting out on his dreams.

 

Sadly the membership loss numbers for the first year scouts hasn't changed with the NSP, or at least as of ten years ago. So that means the NSP didn't approach fixing the problem. That makes sense to me because the problem for first year scouts is that they are very uncomfortable going from the orderly adult led lifestyle to the chaotic boy run lifestyle. Shocked is an appropriate word. Just because all your patrol mates are your same age friends doesn't make it less chaotic. New scouts need to be given some time to get weaned from their total trust of the adults to the trust of their youth leaders. And it's OK for the adults to be part of the success of a boy run program. 

 

Barry

 

This thread dredges up some old boyhood memories for me...

when I first joined a troop, I was a bit older (we had moved while I was in WEBELOS, and I didn't go back to scouts for a couple years)

I found it very awkward to be working through these requirements

show this, explain that, demonstrate how to....

I would have been fumbling my way through the motions, along with a peer of the same age, someone I knew form school that would have been in scouts for a while and therefore ranked up higher....

The whole peer as a coach/teacher/boss/mentor thing was just very awkward.

I suspect this is now different for boys today in a NSP.

[Eagledad]

So what you're saying is introducing new boys into a boy-led program whether it is through the NSP or just full steam ahead doesn't make a difference in the loss of first year scouts.

 

Yes, that is what I'm saying. It's really about understanding boy psychology of  the age. The BSA calls it Ages And  Stages. Statistically, if you have the new scout after six months, you have him for several years.

 

So my 2/3rds loss was due to the fact that I didn't start the boys out adult led and move to boy led later on?

 

It's not about you stosh, you have 40 something years of scout leading experience, I'm sure you have it figured out. I'm talking about a real national trend.

 

Try it some day from scratch, then one will see a whole new set of dynamics that don't fit in with working with an established unit of older boys.

 

Yep, been there and done that with the t-shirts sitting in the closet. And what I learned from those experiences are what I'm passing along here.

 

Adults are key to the success of any scouting program, but especially a boy run program. A boy run program is these hardest program for adults to run because the actions on the adults side go against our parenting nature. Still, one cannot send a group of 10 year old boys in the woods by themselves and expect them to come back with their annual planning completed. There is a process just to get most of those 10 year olds confident enough to go from their tent to the latrine on a moonless night.

 

The real skill of being a boy scout leader of a true boy run program is developing processes for building confidence and initiative in boys to do their own scouting. That is not as simple as it sounds and those are the kind of skills we experienced "been their done that" scouters need to pass on to other scouters. Sure 300 ft separation sounds great until the new scouter gets into the reality of doing it. Adults are not evil, they just have grow and learn how to be good scout leaders just like the guy who brags of having 40 something years of experience. That is all this discussion is about. How can we help poor scout leaders become fair, fair scout leaders become good and good scout leaders great? How? 

 

Barry

[Stosh]

@@blw2

 

It's always easier to sink or swim with your buddies when one is on the same page as everyone else.  That's how camaraderie is built.  They mentor each other.  Every time the group shuffles, the history starts all over from scratch.  The largest ECOH I ever attended was when 6 Eagles all picked the same time and place for their ECOH.... They had been together since Tigers. and they refused to break up the group under any circumstances.  SM tried it once, but changed his mind when all 6 walked out without even needing to discuss it.

[qwazse]

So, I"m now thinking along the lines of having a "track" at University of Scouting for "Adventure" for both adults and scouts:  

 

Backpacking Gear (1.5 hours)

Backcountry Cooking (.5 hours)

Backpacking Trek Planning and Adventures (1.0)

Canoeing / Kayaking / Rafting (1.0 hour)

100 Hikes and Adventures (1.0 hour)

 

The last three classes would include ideas of where to go and what to do -- even having the participants make suggestions.  My goal is to give adults the basics and get them excited about doing some of these things.  Heck, I can even work in discussions of how this works in boy-led (I remember a couple of comments on the fact that I don't have a map on a trek -- just the boys) and how to work with the boys in planning the events.  Add in a resource guide -- checklists, website links to trail organizations, etc.

 

The best part is I can get the guys from my Troop to do the presentations -- no better way to showcase boy-led.

 

I think this is a really good plan. UoS is also the best way to "throw down the gauntlet" to other troops to step up their game. The down-side is you might be stuck with the same length for each course so you might want to re-balance the load. Talk to the course coordinators early and often about that.

 

I also suspect that folks might only attend some courses in your track, so take some from your "100 best" and insert into the other courses (e.g. "5 Best Hikes" in backpacking, "5 Best Places for a Trail Breakfast" in cooking, etc ... sort of a Boys' Choice Award).

 

Definitely have your boys teach the courses while adults assist with props and audio visuals. It's a serious time commitment for your boys, so figure out an appropriate award. (Ideally this could include a campout that weekend in the vicinity of the course -- perhaps really close to where the dutch oven course is )

 

Be prepared for a "next step", Some of your boys/adults may be asked to visit a troop or patrol to help them lay out a solid 1-2 year plan that gets them where they want to be.

[MattR]

Please don't suggest you can teach rafting in an hour, or anything on moving water. The idea of canoeing our local white water is crazy. People that end up on the wrong part of the river die every year, and they're in rafts.

 

Getting scouts to want to do adventure is a chicken and egg thing and adults are part of the mix. A couple of years ago the campout ideas the scouts were coming up with were bad. Nobody wanted a competition or a challenge. I'd suggest it. I'd talk to the PLC and remind them of how much fun they had doing something like a tug of war competition at a camporee, but when the rubber hit the road they didn't want to compete. So I finally said every campout must have a challenge of some sort, their choice, but I'm setting boundaries. Turns out they really enjoy it and now they wouldn't think of not doing it. There's also no doubt they need help turning their ideas into something that works. Lately, anything with a disaster theme works. You were in a plane. It got shot down by Russian separatists. Here's a map. You are at A, your gear is at B, and an injured scout from your patrol is at C. Good luck. I put that one out and the scouts are going crazy with it.

 

Motivating scouts is a subject all its own that is never covered anywhere in the training and I find it the crux of many problems. Once a scout can self motivate, when he can see where he wants to go, the adults should watch and enjoy it. But getting him to that point is most of what I should be doing. You obviously don't want to do it for the scout because he'll never learn. At the same time just asking him what he wants to do really depends on the maturity of the scout.

[Stosh]

For some scouts, yes, others, no.  I have had plenty of scouts that have commented the activities were boring.  When asked what they were going to do about it to make it more fun, some did nothing, others rolled up their sleeves and got to work.  Every boy is different.  Sure, I could have gotten on the case of the do nothing scouts, but as a boy-led program the hidden beauty of the whole thing is peer pressure is a far better motivator than some adult yelling at a kid.    Once they draw the naysayer into the planning process, things tend to get back to normal.

[CNYScouter]

A couple of years ago our council considered holding multiple Scouting University's

I suggested to do an outdoor oriented version at our Scout Camp

 

it never got passed the rough draft stage but here was what I wanted to do

 

4 - 2 hour session on a Saturday

there would be a basic class and an advanced class in 4 subjects

 

Topics might be

Basic Fire building - Advanced Fire Building (flint and Steel, campfire layouts)

Basic Map and Compass - Advanced GPS

Basic Knots - Advanced Lashing (pioneering projects)

Basic Outdoor Cooking - Advanced outdoor cooking (utensils-less cooking)

 

After staffing IOLS there just isn't enough to do more than a quick run through on some of these

I have run into many an SM and ASM's who have no idea how to do these basic scout skills

 

I wouldn't expect anyone to become an expert after these but they could come away with a solid background to be able to practice further on their own.

[Eagledad]

One subject of skills I see left out a lot but is very important for everyday scouting is woods tools. Most adults have never touch an axe or tree saw, much less use them. I read once that the tree saw is the number one cause of emergency room visits for scouts.

 

Barry

[Krampus]

One subject of skills I see left out a lot but is very important for everyday scouting is woods tools. Most adults have never touch an axe or tree saw, much less use them. I read once that the tree saw is the number one cause of emergency room visits for scouts.

 

Barry

 

The bread knife for cutting bagels was the number one cause of ER visits on Sunday mornings when I lived in the northeast. We still allow Scouts to use those....and adults.

[Eagledad]

Yes, I think males are attracted to serrated edges like fish are attracted to shinny objects. LOL

 

Barry

[Stosh]

In our council the word got out the reason the axes were removed from woods tools at summer camp is because of the number of adults that hurt themselves with them.

[JoeBob]

Paul Bunyan was my favorite subject to teach.  You get a good partner on the other end of a crosscut and you can show off!

[Hedgehog]

 

...or @@Hedgehog the loss of only one boy in the past 3 years is due to the fact that one's program isn't as boy-led as some others?  I'm kinda wondering if the dropout ratio is proportional to the boy-led dynamics.

 

Out of the 4 boys I lost the first year, only one was because of the boy-led issue.  He left because he didn't really want to work at it and wanted older boys around to do it for him so he joined another "boy-led" troop.  I put that in quotes because the only ones who think that troop is really boy-led are the adults of that troop.  The other three left for reasons that had nothing to do with the structure of the program.     

 

It is ironic that the biggest advocate of boy-led doesn't believe it can retain scouts.

 

Nonetheless, thank you for insinuating that our troop isn't boy-led as it should be.  

 

We do encourage the boy leaders to check up on the new guys and keep them engaged at the weekly meetings.  Gosh, maybe we should just ignore our boy leaders and see if they figure it out.  I do give a talk on backpacking gear and how to make good decisions in buying gear.  Maybe I should let the 11 year olds figure that out the hard way.  I do provide a list of things to bring on camp outs and to pack for summer camp in an e-mail to the scouts and their parents.  Maybe I should just let their moms come up with the list.  I do ask the new scouts how they are doing on campouts and at camp.  I guess I should just ignore them, especially when they are sitting by themselves on the edge of camp on the verge of tears.  It will make them stronger.

 

Let me take last weekend as an example.  I arrived 10 minutes late to the departure.  The SPL, PLs and QMs already had the cars packed.  I did have to encourage two scouts to get their packs in a car as it was starting to rain.  I then did a headcount with the SPL to make sure everyone was there.  When we stopped at a convenience store, I comforted a boy who was getting car sick, bought him a bottle of water and made the decision to have him ride in my car (which based on my car and driving style would be a calmer ride).  When we got to the camporee, I found the SPL and told him we needed to check in.  I gave him the binder with the rosters, receipts, schedules and maps (yes, I printed them because they were forwarded to me and I was able to print multiple copies on a laserjet printer at work).  He checked in and then got the PLs and they took the boys up to the campsite while I drove my car up with the gear (even made my own son hike it in despite him asking for a ride  ).  I showed the SPL where our site was and he told the PLs where to have their scouts unload the troop gear and set up their tents.  After they made sure the tents were set up, people either went to sleep or hung out. SPL and I went to leaders meeting, learned nothing new and went to sleep.  Next morning, I gave the SPL the following instructions:

 

"There are enough schedules in the binder for each PL and APL to have one and enough maps for each scout to have one.  The hats we got last night for the scouts are in my car.  The boys are supposed to travel around as patrol.  A Patrol's APL has to leave around 10:00 and will be back around 3.  B Patrol's APL is going to make lunch for the Cub Scout den he is Den Chief for and then go around with them in the afternoon.  You can go around the camporee with either patrol.  You are in charge.  My job is to make sure that the rest of the adults don't interfere."

 

Based on some of the skit suggestions that scouts had, I did tell the SPL that the skits the boys were preparing for the campfire needed to be appropriate (no political themes, no potty jokes and nothing that could offend people).  His response was (as I"ve trained him to do) "Don't worry, I've got this Mr. Hedgehog."  I did give one patrol the extra boxes of Macaronni and Cheese I had in the adult box because the grubmaster forgot to buy some.  I also asked one of the PLs to help a new scout with the cooking because he was struggling.  I did (despite protests from the SPL and PLs - "What happened to Boy-Led Mr. Hedgehog?") require the troop to attend the half hour Scout's Service after dinner.  The next morning, I cooked French Toast for one scout who had special bread because of a gluten allergy because the adults were also having French Toast.  Probably should have had him do it, but both his and the adults were on the griddle at the same time.  We packed up, did start, stop continue (led by the SPL) and came home. I did help the new Quartermaster inventory the patrol boxes for the first time after we got home.  

 

I"m pretty sure that despite a couple of thing I could have done better, most outside observers would classify our troop as boy led. 

 

That being said, I'm honestly getting sick and tired of defending my skils as a leader. 

 

I'm not sure you can teach those skills -- it comes from a lifetime of learning. @@Hedgehog

 

New leaders don't have a lifetime to pull it together.  At least some training as to generally what to expect of OTHER PEOPE's experiences might be quite helpful to the newbies.  Instead, as you you propose, maybe it's a waste of time and so why try.  

 

I for one really don't like going on such activities with the potential for serious problems totally unprepared.  Doesn't sound very scout-like to me.

 

Solution?  Don't take the boys on high adventure, avoid the whole thing.... life is good.  And I can show plenty of examples in our council of that attitude.

 

I'm not sure we are talking about the same skills.  I'm talking about things like empathy, understanding, compassion and knowing when to sympathize and when to push the boys harder.  When to say, it is OK if you don't do that and when to say stick with it you can make it.  

 

Much of it is a matter of style -- what works for me and my boys won't work for others.  Somehow I can't see you making a joke about a scout clogging a flushie toilet after three days backing at at Court of Honor, discussing the finer points of Monty Python on a 13 mile hike or giving the older scouts a hard time for being afraid of spiders (think 6 foot tall scout and half inch spider).  

 

It seems you are thinking of listing the issues that can arise -- sort of like how they instruct leaders at summer camp to deal with homesickness.  That of course can be taught:  1) blisters, 2) fatigue; 3) failure to pack the proper food (i.e. not enough calories or carbohydrates); 4) failure to drink enough water; 5) the effect of being around the same people 24 hours a day for a week; 5) exhaustion; 6) homesickness; 7) damaged equipment; 8) sore muscles; 9) getting tired of eating Cliff Bars; 10) adults needing a drink stronger than water; 11) having halucinations about hamburgers; 12) forgetting what a flushie toilet looks like; 13) getting poison ivy from not having a flush toilet; 14) being tired of being tired; 15) wondering who's idea it was not to bring underarm deodorant; 16) contemplating stealing the donkey in the nearby field and  having him carry your pack; 17) etc.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Hedgehog

[Hedgehog]

 

 

Adults are key to the success of any scouting program, but especially a boy run program. A boy run program is these hardest program for adults to run because the actions on the adults side go against our parenting nature. Still, one cannot send a group of 10 year old boys in the woods by themselves and expect them to come back with their annual planning completed. There is a process just to get most of those 10 year olds confident enough to go from their tent to the latrine on a moonless night.

 

The real skill of being a boy scout leader of a true boy run program is developing processes for building confidence and initiative in boys to do their own scouting. That is not as simple as it sounds and those are the kind of skills we experienced "been their done that" scouters need to pass on to other scouters. Sure 300 ft separation sounds great until the new scouter gets into the reality of doing it. Adults are not evil, they just have grow and learn how to be good scout leaders just like the guy who brags of having 40 something years of experience. That is all this discussion is about. How can we help poor scout leaders become fair, fair scout leaders become good and good scout leaders great? How? 

 

I'm in complete agreement.  One of my favorite Baden-Powel' attributed quotes is “Scouting is a game for boys under the leadership of boys under the direction of a man.â€

 

I think this is a really good plan. UoS is also the best way to "throw down the gauntlet" to other troops to step up their game. The down-side is you might be stuck with the same length for each course so you might want to re-balance the load. Talk to the course coordinators early and often about that.

 

I also suspect that folks might only attend some courses in your track, so take some from your "100 best" and insert into the other courses (e.g. "5 Best Hikes" in backpacking, "5 Best Places for a Trail Breakfast" in cooking, etc ... sort of a Boys' Choice Award).

 

Definitely have your boys teach the courses while adults assist with props and audio visuals. It's a serious time commitment for your boys, so figure out an appropriate award. (Ideally this could include a campout that weekend in the vicinity of the course -- perhaps really close to where the dutch oven course is )

 

Be prepared for a "next step", Some of your boys/adults may be asked to visit a troop or patrol to help them lay out a solid 1-2 year plan that gets them where they want to be.

 

Thank you for the ideas and encouragement.  I like the idea of a campout that weekend -- I'm pretty sure some ribs and corn bread done in a Dutch Oven with some cole slaw and apple sauce on the side would be a good draw -- with Dutch Oven apple pie and brownies for dessert.

 

A couple of years ago our council considered holding multiple Scouting University's

I suggested to do an outdoor oriented version at our Scout Camp

 

***

 

I wouldn't expect anyone to become an expert after these but they could come away with a solid background to be able to practice further on their own.

 

I like the idea of doing it outdoors.  When I did UofS two years ago, I enjoyed the activities that you could actually do something rather than those just sitting and listening.  Eating something is an additional benefit.

 

One subject of skills I see left out a lot but is very important for everyday scouting is woods tools. Most adults have never touch an axe or tree saw, much less use them. I read once that the tree saw is the number one cause of emergency room visits for scouts.

 

I haven't done much with tree saws (although the boys did some at the camporee last weekend).  My favorite is when the two older guys started a contest on a campout to see who could saw through a branch the quickest.

 

However, I have taught a bunch of the boys how to baton and chop wood with my 7 inch Ontario RD7 -- I guess that is why my son wants a Becker BK-9 for Christmas.