This is How We Will Grow Scouting

[meyerc13]

I am on my district's committee and am included on many of the council's emails about results.....finance, membership, and recently.....unit camping trips....and not just Scout Camp. I was surprised to see the "camping" email because I have never seen that as a focus from the council

 

True story:  I was at a Scouting event for the top Popcorn Sellers in our Council.  It takes a lot of effort to be a top seller, my son averaged at least 1 hour a day throughout the sale to make that list.  Since Cub Scouts aren't going out without parents, you know the family put in a lot of time too.  These are families who have a lot invested in Scouting. 

 

We were sitting at a table with families from across the Council.  Through conversation, it came out that one of the families was from the town closest to our Cub Scout Resident camp.  It's a beautiful camp, it was a Boy Scout camp when I was a Scout, and now has theme cabins for Cub Scouts (fort, castle, space station, etc.), running 15 sessions each summer with hundreds of boys per session.  I asked this family if they were going to camp this summer, and they had never been, nor had their Pack!.  As soon as I got home I asked to join the District Camping Committee (on top of the other Scouting hats I wear).

 

The sad truth is that less than half of units go to summer camp.  In those units, it's probably half the boys who go to camp.  Many units don't have BALOO trained adults, so shouldn't be going on Pack campouts.  Yet the new Cub Scout program has camping, outdoor cooking, hiking, and/or campfires as requirements for rank advancement for all ranks starting at Tiger (who only need to do a 'short hike' and participate in a campfire or outdoor Pack Meeting), and growing more intense each year.

 

I think it's a step in the right direction, but how are these units going to help their Scouts advance if the units aren't even going to Summer Camp, much less being prepared to hold their own campouts?  It will be interesting to see what happens at the end of this year... will the number of boys advancing drop, or will we see a lot of units advance their boys despite them not having completed all of these requirements.

 

I would hope that the camping focus is not unique to your District... it should be a major concern in all Districts with the new Cub Scout program.  In my opinion, we failed as a District because we didn't offer a Cub Scout Camporee to help out these units that don't have a clue on how to do tent camping.  True, we have Mom & Son and Dad & Lad campouts that families can attend, but these have no opportunity for outdoor cooking and were scheduled in August and early September, giving newly recruited families no chance to attend.  Hopefully next year we can do better, but will it be too late?  Will many units have decided that they 'did their best' even though they didn't offer Pack campouts?  Will there be any pressure put on units that aren't camping yet advancing their boys when we all know many of the boys aren't doing family camping either?

[Stosh]

@@Eagle94-A1 Besides the units I UC for, I am involved with church youth groups, youth historical interpretation groups, youth canoe and kayak outdoor groups an youth school groups dealing with the school's outdoor program.  The dynamics of scouting without the policy restrictions seem to generate more positive growth in their respective programs than those I deal with in the BSA program.  The stuff that worked 50 years ago still work today.  The stuff they do today doesn't seem to.   I think.@@JoeBob is correct when he notes: "The decline is numbers is not a problem.  The decline in the quality of the program is."

 

When one uses the dynamics of "ancient Green Bar Bill" material and Greenleaf's Servant Leadership dynamics in a church youth group and one has its members serving on the church board, it's something that other people recognize as a positive contribution.  Having free reign outside of BSA and the youth program thrives and the same person restricted by BSA policies political and legal and the programs struggle and flounder, one must seriously take a look at why that is happening.  

 

70 scouts - 8 adults - National Jamboree

12 Venturing scouts - 6 adults - National 150th Gettysburg reenactment (50,000 participants) as reenactors 

 

66 youth - 2 adults - Church youth gathering, downtown Minneapolis

112 youth - 3 adults - Church youth gathering, downtown New Orleans

 

 

Anyone here on the forum have the courage to take 112 scouts anywhere with just 3 adults?  Probably not, BSA won't allow it.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Stosh

[vumbi]

JoeBob, I can't offer a solution because I don't see a problem. This unit and those nearby are mostly doing well. Quality is not in question and numbers have been stable for years. Or maybe I just can't tell when the sky is falling, lol.

 

Stosh, you've been at this for 40 years and are in a position of responsibility and your units are still struggling. You are correct, therefore, to seek solutions from other persons because that guy staring at you in the mirror evidently doesn't have a clue for a solution.

 

Cyclops, I clean things up (check my avatar). It's what I do and I don't mind. I like to get paid for it though. In cases like Stosh, I don't know enough about his situation to begin to know how to clean up his messes. They've been 40 years in the making and are probably beyond my ability.

[NJCubScouter]

Anyone here on the forum have the courage to take 112 scouts anywhere with just 3 adults?  Probably not, BSA won't allow it.

And they shouldn't allow it. I wouldn't call it courage, I would call it foolishness and irresponsibility.

[qwazse]

And they shouldn't allow it. I wouldn't call it courage, I would call it foolishness and irresponsibility.

Really @@NJCubScouter? Have you even counted the kids on a busy street corner unescorted?

[David CO]

Boys can get justifiably annoyed when they are required to have adult supervision to do things that they are usually allowed to do on their own.  Who wouldn't?

[MattR]

I'm not surprised at the BSA's focus. Numbers are falling, the BSA has to figure out how to pay for their mortgage, right now, so they did ask the parents, and there are lots of parents that are worried about their kids' careers. So the BSA responds with more Explorers and junior explorers, aka STEM scouts.

 

But what could they really do to help each of our units? Many people here have said that scouting is local, so maybe that's the discussion to have.

 

I suppose some better advertising could help me out. Not too crazy on it but it would help.

 

My council does not have enough trainers when it comes to shooting sports and climbing, as in, we have adults willing to take the training but we can't get them trained. We have climbing gear we can't use right now.

 

That huge new HA camp on the East coast does nothing for my troop as it's too far away and too expensive. I'd much rather see some of that money spent on fixing my local camp's infrastructure. I'm not talking about fancy gear, just a water system that meets state standards.

 

Maybe if we took that $24/scout that goes to national each year and gave it to the local council then we'd be in much better shape.

 

Also, don't just dump stem scouts on my DE without first coming up with a plan to pay for it. He will quit if you don't.

 

Remember, it is about the adventure. It is not about Eagle. Kids do not need Eagle if they are having an adventure. They certainly don't need to get Eagle by the time they're 14. Make sure that summer camps are about summer adventure and not just merit badges. Kids still like adventure and fun. They always have and they always will. If anything has changed it's that kids have less opportunity to have an adventure. If we're starting to not let them choose the game they can play at recess then 1) what we offer is even more important than before, and 2) these kids are starting at a lower level of maturity than what we're used to. We might have to adapt the program to get them started but it is still about the adventure. And just to make this clear, there is no better place in the world to have a real adventure than the outdoors. It's called wild for a reason, and that's what boys respond to.

 

Look at the assumptions we've had for too long and check them. We assume that there are plenty of adults with outdoor experience. I find plenty of adults that like being in the outdoors, but maybe not the wild side of the outdoors. Maybe there needs to be a training program for them that's fun that they can do alongside their sons. We assume that there are plenty of cub scouts coming up into boy scouts. I've noticed that a lot more kids in elementary school play sports than in middle school. Maybe we should be trying to get into the middle schools to make presentations rather than the elementary schools. If so, that presentation should focus on the adventure. Either way, does cub scouts really need to be so long?

 

My pet peeve is training. If the adults don't know what a good program looks like then they'll never create one. I'm sorry but 6 hours of slides will not describe what this is about. My proof is simple. The district training people tried to start a troop last year and it failed miserably. Revamp training. The 6 hours could be cut down to 4 and called an introduction, but for those that want to do it right, Train them, trust them, and let them be.

[NJCubScouter]

Really @@NJCubScouter? Have you even counted the kids on a busy street corner unescorted?

I wasn't talking about random kids on a street corner. I was talking about a trip Stosh said was taken to New Orleans by a group of 112 youth with only 3 adults.

[Hedgehog]

Q:  How many adults does is requried to take a group of scouts on an overnight trip?

 

A:  Two.  One to advise the boys and one to keep the other adults out of the way.

 

 

Maybe there needs to be a training program for them that's fun that they can do alongside their sons. 

 

When I took my IOLS training, the Council where I took it advertised this:  http://www.nnjbsa.org/document/woodsmans-thong-training-by-patriots-path/115623

 

I think that is along the lines of what you had in mind.

 

My then 11 year old son was very excited at taking the class in two years.  My now 13 year old son and I talked about it at the end of the summer and his response (after camping 55 nights, backpacking close to 100 miles and hiking another 100) was, "I could teach that class... I've done all of that.  It should be something kids do after First Class, not after Star."  I've often thought that a version of the program would be good for our council to adopt -- even better if older scouts can teach the adults.  

 

I have a similar goal when I do my introduction to backpacking class for Webelos and new Scouts (and their parents). 

[qwazse]

I wasn't talking about random kids on a street corner. I was talking about a trip Stosh said was taken to New Orleans by a group of 112 youth with only 3 adults.

I understand. But, I can find ten times as many kids on our city streets unchaperoned for more cumulative hours a week than that.

On a vacation week in Europe there are trains full of em gawking at the American kids being herded by their adult minders.

 

You're presuming that the level of discipline among youth is always inadequate for them to travel in large numbers relative to the adults present. That's not the case.

 

Now some infamous church gatherings in history have had a reputation for "more souls being conceived than saved", but that risk is hardly mitigated by excess adults. It just encourages our at-risk youth to avoid the influence of abstinent youth.

 

If we cannot accept that our youth should arrive at a level of maturity to function independently overnight well before their 18th birthday, we will lose them as they go and exercise that developmentally appropriate function elsewhere.

Edited October 12, 2015 by qwazse

[Krampus]

The problem with membership decline is not rocket science and comes down to running scouting like a business. When businesses see a drop in sales they try to figure out why. Was there a drop in product quality? Was there a shift in demographics? How was marketing targeted/focused? Was there more competition in the market? 

 

BSA does not run itself as a business. Better said, they run themselves like a poor business. What they need is to focus on their core product, increase quality, maintain a more standardized and predictable product, develop better product loyalty and better brand and management. There was ways to do this but BSA ignores them or implements them poorly.

 

For those who don't see the sky falling I will say this: I spent the weekend at a Cub Scout event in one of the biggest councils with one of the largest memberships in Scouting. The weather was beautiful. There were no major events with which to compete against the council event this weekend. Attendance was down 75%!!!! Families didn't camp...anywhere. Most came for the day and left at 2pm. I listened as my unit staffed an event and the comments from parents about scouting were not good. Most I heard had had it with the politics, the restrictions, the mismanagement, the burdensome rules, the ambiguity and the other silliness. Of the 40+ packs I spoke to, few had membership increases. Most saw declines. Most had 25% reductions year on year through Webelos 2. Of the Webelos 2's, few were continuing on to Boy Scouts. 

 

If this is representative of what is going on in other councils where scouting is less popular, I'd say the sky is more than falling. To continue the analogy, the atmosphere is depleting and not merely experiencing a whole in the Ozone layer. 

[NJCubScouter]

qwasze, I will admit that I am not very familiar with the travelling practices of church youth groups or any other religious youth groups for that matter. My son did go on some multi-overnight robotics trips while in high school, and the number of chaperones did seem roughly equivalent to what a Scouting group might have, i.e. one adult for each 10 or so kids.

 

Probably more importantly, I do not think this is issue is a very significant element in the BSA's "growth" problem.

[blw2]

JoeBob, I can't offer a solution because I don't see a problem. This unit and those nearby are mostly doing well. Quality is not in question and numbers have been stable for years. Or maybe I just can't tell when the sky is falling, lol.

 

Stosh, you've been at this for 40 years and are in a position of responsibility and your units are still struggling. You are correct, therefore, to seek solutions from other persons because that guy staring at you in the mirror evidently doesn't have a clue for a solution.

 

Cyclops, I clean things up (check my avatar). It's what I do and I don't mind. I like to get paid for it though. In cases like Stosh, I don't know enough about his situation to begin to know how to clean up his messes. They've been 40 years in the making and are probably beyond my ability.

 

I personally suggest that this conclusion is a bit closed minded.

As evidence by @@Stosh 's 7,645+ posts and his 120+ thanks and his 1,915+ "Excellent"  (whatever those are)....

I'd suggest that he has a lot of good good ideas and good experiences.

I seriously dislike when anyone stands on laurels of time in service... such as a tradesman when confronted about doing a bad job pointing out that he's been doing that job X years.... my response or thought is always well maybe you've been doing it wrong all those years....

But I suspect that @@Stosh is not standing solely and only on his time of experience... but also his quality of experience.

I've been on here long enough to see that.....

 

I'd also suggest that we remember that everyone has a best fit role.  For some it's scoutmaster and for others it's some other job.  Sometimes we're thrown into jobs that aren't necessarily our best fit..... and that's not necessarily that person's fault.....

Additionally, even the best fit person in the world for a given job needs others along with them for the unit to be a success...... a good SM for example also needs a good crop of boys, good parents, a good committee standing and working with him, etc....

 

qwasze, I will admit that I am not very familiar with the travelling practices of church youth groups or any other religious youth groups for that matter. My son did go on some multi-overnight robotics trips while in high school, and the number of chaperones did seem roughly equivalent to what a Scouting group might have, i.e. one adult for each 10 or so kids.

 

Probably more importantly, I do not think this is issue is a very significant element in the BSA's "growth" problem.

 

 

I'd agree with this.... not likely the crux of the problem....

but it might be one small piece.....

 

I've chaperoned a few elementary school field trips and band events..... & I'd say a similar ratio holds there as well...... and that's with skilled and experienced teachers running the show that clearly could have handled the group in their sleep and by themselves!

Edited October 12, 2015 by blw2

[JoeBob]

JoeBob, I don't see a problem. 

 

Stosh, that guy staring at you in the mirror evidently doesn't have a clue.

 

 

Another well thought out bit of wisdom.  Thank you for making the effort to be so helpful.

 

 

Canoeing a river, swimming a lake, hiking a trail, cutting firewood, identifying plants, watching birds, building (and playing in) a fire, cooking your own breakfast in the woods...  Those are experiences that will grow Scouting.

 

I'd rather have half of BSA's current numbers doing the real program than the weenied down mess that we have devolved to.  I no longer expect to reach every boy; but I do like giving those boys who do come out the real woodcraft experience.

Edited October 12, 2015 by JoeBob

[Twocubdad]

Maybe if we took that $24/scout that goes to national each year and gave it to the local council then we'd be in much better shape.

 

 

This ties in with my comments a couple pages ago about council camps stepping up their local HA activities in support of troops which don't have the trained leadership to pull it off.  I wrote that council camps should look something like a guide service, especially in the off season, providing climbing, shooting, aquatics and other specialty activities to units which can pull them off on their own.

 

A couple years ago our council had a series of "town hall" meetings with various volunteers to discuss the problem that both FOS and popcorn sales are declining.  I mentioned my resentment of the then-recent increases in national dues, but said I would be more than happy to pay the same money to the council, provided it went to support programs.

 

The pros in the room visibly blanched.  I had touched the third rail.  No professional wants to hear questions about value national provides because they all hitched to that gravy train.  Until we change the policy of pros being beholden to national for their career advancement, they will always support the national policies rather than what is best for the council, units or Scouts.