scouts on the autism scale, how much to "bend" merit badge requirements?

[NJCubScouter]

I just want to point out, again, that we have been given no facts whatsoever about the condition of any particular Scout that this thread may be about, other than that it is about Scouts on the "autism scale", which can mean a wide variety of things.

 

In fact, upon re-reading Exibar's two posts in this thread, I realize that there is no clear indication that this IS about any particular Scout, or Scouts. I'm guessing that there is, or are, but guessing does not make for good advice. Without any facts, the rest of us (including me) have discussed a bunch of things that quite possibly having nothing to do with the Scout(s) in question, if any.

 

And, since the question of what a particular Scout "can" and "cannot" do must be addressed for that particular Scout's specific condition, and nobody else's, and must also be evaluated in light of each specific requirement (Scout through 1st Class) or each specific merit badge, I'm not sure what else can be said here to assist the original poster.

[scoutldr]

But we did a good job of beating it to death, didn't we?

[Stosh]

That's what we do best.

[NJCubScouter]

Yes, I think we all get an A+ in beating this one to death.

[fred johnson]

I have to disagree with Fred.  "Do Your Best" is the Cub scout motto.  In Boy Scouting it is "do the requirement"...no more, no less.

 

Agreed, but most requirements are extremely subjective.  "Discuss", "Explain", "show" are all subjective and based on the age / level / capability / situation of the scout.  Non-subjective is "earn $10 and save $5".  Subjective is earn money and save half.  I would expect a 17 year old scout to earn and save more than an eleven year old.  And if the 17 year old is working, I would expect more.

[fred johnson]

Again with icon hate? What's with you guys? The people complaining are so darn liberal about other peoples' feelings and rights, yet when someone has an icon (of all things) that is based on a cultural icon (pardon the pun) based on centuries of cultural practice it begs offense from these same people? C'Mon!

 

You don't see me (or others) saying one word about anybody else's icon for Pete's sake. Give it a rest.

 

You've chosen a generally demonic icon to represent yourself to a group where goodwill, friendship and positive values are the goal.  It's like Facebook pictures of people flipping the bird.  

[Krampus]

You've chosen a generally demonic icon to represent yourself to a group where goodwill, friendship and positive values are the goal.  It's like Facebook pictures of people flipping the bird.  

 

I am stunned at how funny some of you guys are. I read your posts on other issues and you welcome all sorts of things very liberally. You interpret something like my icon totally incorrectly and you get your liberal dander up. Ironic. Welcoming to those things you agree with, unwelcoming to those things you don't understand.

 

I will say again, it is a cultural icon from a Germanic region in Bavaria and Tirol. You want to misinterpret it and get your underwear in a bunch, fine. That's your right. But you're showing your colors by assuming it represents anything demonic.

 

Try being more inclusive. That is what you seem to preach in all your posts. Meh.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Krampus

[scoutldr]

Agreed, but most requirements are extremely subjective.  "Discuss", "Explain", "show" are all subjective and based on the age / level / capability / situation of the scout.  Non-subjective is "earn $10 and save $5".  Subjective is earn money and save half.  I would expect a 17 year old scout to earn and save more than an eleven year old.  And if the 17 year old is working, I would expect more.

 

When in doubt, I always would ask the Scout.  "It says 'do X, Y, Z.  Did you do that'"  "Could you do it with a little more effort"?  Usually, they could...and did.

[gumbymaster]

I am stunned at how funny some of you guys are. I read your posts on other issues and you welcome all sorts of things very liberally. You interpret something like my icon totally incorrectly and you get your liberal dander up. Ironic. Welcoming to those things you agree with, unwelcoming to those things you don't understand.

 

I will say again, it is a cultural icon from a Germanic region in Bavaria and Tirol. You want to misinterpret it and get your underwear in a bunch, fine. That's your right. But you're showing your colors by assuming it represents anything demonic.

 

Try being more inclusive. That is what you seem to preach in all your posts. Meh.

 

I think I am with krampus on this one.

1. While the religeon followed by many of you here may associate that type of image with a devil or other ungodly demon.  MANY other religeons in the world do not, and in fact, some may revere similar figures.

2. the Krampus (the traditional one, not the forum member) is a long standing tradition in the culture of germanic tribes of europe - as old or older than Santa Claus / St. Nicholas, and a lot less (currently) culturally insensitive than the Dutch tradition of Black Pete who serves a similar role.  If anything it would serve as a reminder of the consequences of not being on one's best behavior.

3. As adults, is picking on someone's avatar really worth it?  While some may try to claim that the insensitivity to their religeons makes the choice against the scouting laws of "kind, courteous, and reverent"; aren't some of you equally violating these same laws in your "demands" for him to change it?

4. Youth members, while they may, and do discover these forums, if that avatar is the most offensive and unscoutlike thing they can find on these forums (It's not), then I wouldn't be worried.  Those old enough to be here and not be so bored with the discussion topics to remain probably have the maturity to deal with the real world issues of differing opinions.

5. Younger scouts are probably already very familiar with the krampus (more so than many on this forum), as the Disney Channel's Phineous and Ferb cartoon did a whole show on the Kramups, and it's meaning - to great comic effect.

6. Finally, Although I cannot find it at the moment, I thought when I joined the forum there were some guidlines on acceptable avatars, usernames, etc.  If the members of the forum need to petition the site operator and moderators for a change in that policy, by all means do so; but given their absence in taking a stand on this, I would conclude that it does not violate those policies, and thus we should all really let this subject drop.

Edited October 9, 2015 by gumbymaster

[Stosh]

With the way the discussion seems to have veered off to, one would almost conclude that anything with horns is demonic.... and I'm going to assume that applies to all the bull that is floating around at the present time.  

[GeorgiaMom]

How does one know a boy can't do a requirement unless he has tried? 

 

All this "up front" speculation is rather moot.  This is like cutting him slack before he starts.  I'm with @@scoutldr on this one. 

 

How long is this boy's autism excuse going to hold up in life.  Sooner or later he's going to need to step up to the plate.  Don't take away his opportunity to do better than what society has labeled him.

 

My son is on the high functioning end of the autism scale, so this subject is near and dear to my heart as well.  Scouting has been *so* beneficial to my son.  I will be forever grateful to the adult leaders who have given generously of their time and patience to help him grow.

 

That said, I have to point out a major problem with Stosh's reasoning.  The "how do you know until you try" attitude hasn't come up with us in Scouts (thankfully), but it has in drama at school.  It was an awful experience for our son and for us.  He finished the year, but he never wants to be in the school drama program again, which is sad as he enjoys drama and in general drama programs at our church and the county art center have been very good for him.

 

The problem was the teacher in charge who had the "how do you know until you try" attitude, which assumes that the child in question has never tried the skill before in a different class, group, or medical setting.  My child's autism might be new to you, but it's definitely not new to us. The teacher we dealt with who had this attitude completely ignored my concerns as a parent, and pretty much made my son miserable.  This is what I would like to say to her, but can't, since she's an 80 year old volunteer and pretty much gets away with anything.

 

"Ma'am, I know what my son is capable of, and what will result in many hours of frustration and crying, because I'm his mom.  I've been working with his disability for 11 years.  You met him last month for the first time.   On a weekly basis, I take my son to speech therapy, occupational therapy, and a social skills class.  We spend many hours with the audiologist and the developmental pediatrician.  Also, his teachers and the IEP team at school.  Here is his IEP, clearly specifying that what you want him to do (write long essays) is very difficult for him due to autism and expressive language disorder.  He's also catching up on his language development as we finally figured out after years of trying with various doctors that he can't comprehend about 40% of what is said to him due to neurological hearing issues (autism). 

 

So, ma'am, when you tell him to write you an essay (why are we doing this in after school drama?), it is a big deal for him.  He did do it, ma'am.  He did his very best, and worked very hard on it, ma'am.  I got your note about how it "wasn't up to 4th grade standards".  No shit, ma'am.  Really?  I gave you a copy of his IEP and tried to talk with you about it (you said it didn't legally apply to you).  His actual 4th grade teachers would never demand that he do what you demanded he do.  They understand his mental limitations in writing.  That's why he is in a pullout small group for writing with a parapro instead of the mainstream class.  He'd way above his peers in science and math (and chess and robotics), but yes, he's below grade level in writing.  It's called a disability, ma'am.  Autistic kids don't develop in the pattern you're used to across the board.  They can excel greatly in one area and lag way behind in another.

 

That's why he has a parapro, and accommodations.  He's grown so much in his writing skills.  That's a result of kindness, help, and attention at school and at home.  He didn't get there by being told that "he can do it if he tries".  You have no clue how hard my son works, lady.  He spends hours every week in classes and therapy to develop skills most kids take for granted.  "

 

She never did back off on making him produce that 4th grade level essay to her satisfaction.  She refused to see me to discuss my concerns.  I found out later that she had him pulled from his regular classes without my knowledge or permission during the school day and sent to the office so the guidance counselor could work with him one on one to produce this #%#$%#$% essay that she decided the world would end without.  I was tempted to file a formal complaint with the county, but decided it would do more harm than good.

 

All that to day, Stosh, you don't decide when pushing is appropriate, and parents have no obligation to argue with you about their child's medical limitations.  Suggest a challenge, sure.  Argue with me? Hell, no.

 

Vent over.  Just a window into the other point of view.  It is exhausting for my son and for me to keep proving to new people over and over and over that yes, he really does have a disability.  I am well aware of what he can do if challenged and what is beyond him at this time.  I'm not bringing him to scouts and staying with him for all the activities so we can scam the BSA into giving him bling he didn't earn.  I'm here to help him grow.  Please give me the respect of listening to me as the person who knows and loves him best as to when it is best to push and when it is best to back off.

 

And your "autism excuse" comment is way over the line.  It's a genuine medical problem, and you should treat kids and their parents with more respect. 

 

GeorgiaMom

[Krampus]

The problem was the teacher in charge who had the "how do you know until you try" attitude, which assumes that the child in question has never tried the skill before in a different class, group, or medical setting.  My child's autism might be new to you, but it's definitely not new to us. The teacher we dealt with who had this attitude completely ignored my concerns as a parent, and pretty much made my son miserable. 

 

I have a nephew on the scale. I think that every kids needs to stretch his boundaries in order to grow, however, any teacher who ignores parental concerns -- especially with a child with special needs -- is doing the child (and parents) a disservice.

 

I think there are people out there who *think* they know better, think the parents have been too "easy" on their kid and if only they pushed him/her a bit more they could do better. I have found people like this usually have been watching too much Dr. Phil and have no clue what it is like to raise a child on the spectrum.

 

Go with your gut.

[Stosh]

First of all I don't think I have ever told a boy they can do anything if only they try.  I only ask the question, how do you know if you haven't tried.

 

I wish I had a dollar for every scout that told me he couldn't do something that with the support and care of an adult can't help that person over their reluctance to even try.  That, of course, applies to all "normal" (if there is such a thing) boys, as well as boys with Aspergers, Autism, ADD, ADHD, and a variety of other restrictive medical conditions.

 

We would think nothing of saying to the boy who doesn't "like broccoli" but has never eaten it, how they know that.  It looks gross, or smells bad, etc. but until they actually taste it they don't know.  As scouters, we need to expose the boys to new experiences, new opportunities, new challenges and we will never be able to do that if they except the excuses up-front.

 

As an adult I have many times been surprised by what some boys were able to do that when I first met them thought it would have been extremely difficult, if not impossible for them.  The look in their eyes when they prove me wrong is priceless.

 

Yes, I have had many parents tell me that their child cannot do something, only to have the child do it anyway.  If I accepted the parents and/or child's original assessments, no one would ever find out what is really possible.

 

Yes, I have had boys try and not be able to do the task, and that's okay as well.  At least at this point the scout knows for sure.

 

Scout: I can't do that (swim).

 

SM: Have you ever tried?

 

Scout: No

 

SM: Then how do you know?

 

verses

 

Scout: I can't do that (swim).

 

SM: Have you ever tried?

 

Scout: Yes, my mom and dad both tried a few years back, I just can't get the hang of it.

 

SM: Well, you're a bit older, a bit more coordinated, a bit more confident, a bit more stronger than before, what do you think about you and I giving it another try?

 

If at that point the scout gives it his best shot and can't, then I'm heading to the Council office to see what options I have to help this boy get through his advancement/MB requirements given his limitations.

 

I have had boys use the autism excuse, the ADD excuse, the ADHD excuse, the whatever excuse, but it all boils down to the same thing.  They never tried and everyone accepted it at face value.

 

A lot of youth tend to use their medical conditions to limit themselves to what is comfortable.  If that's what they want, then fine, but if they wish to grow, develop beyond what they think their limits are then they must meet uncomfortable challenges.

 

I personally have a fear of heights, big time.  But knowing what I can and can't do allows me to cope.  When I start up the ladder, I can feel physical and mental changes occurring.  I do not overcome them, but I can adjust for them.  Just yesterday I put a wind vane up on the peak of the 2 story garage.  It took me 3-4 times longer than most people because I don't move fast in high places.  I did it.  I didn't like it, It was uncomfortable, It wasn't necessary, but my wife was pleased it was put up.  I also needed to put up bat houses this summer.  Not a pleasant experience either.

 

What if I let that limitation in life define me?  There were times at Philmont that would have affected the whole team if I didn't push through the situation.  If I stood at the bottom of Baldy's slag pile and said I couldn't climb that, the whole trek would have been different.  It was probably the longest afternoon of my life, but I was the first to reach the top.  I found a faint switch-back trail near the top and I simply walked gingerly to the top.  Everyone said I cheated, but I didn't care.

 

Excuses mean nothing.  Trying and failing is far better than not trying at all.  As SM it is my job to make the opportunities to try.  If nothing else, I do find out where on the scale the boys really area.  I have a fear of heights, but I have repelled off the top of a 8 story building as part of Emergency Rescue Training..  Was it fun and exciting?  Nope, but I did it and I could probably do it again if I had to.

 

Oh, by the way, I raised a son who was on the ADHD spectrum, so I have a pretty good handle on what a parent faces with child with challenges.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Stosh

[Stosh]

To the person who dinged me.  I am glad you weren't my son's SM.  And I'm glad you weren't on my adult staff when my Down's Syndrome boy was working with me on his Eagle project at age 34.  I'm glad you weren't there when my ADHD boy ran the popcorn fundraiser and raised more money than any adult before him.  I'm glad you were there when my Asperger's Syndrome boy designed the Council OA patch for the Centennial Jamboree.  Why?  Because every one of them started out with the comment, "I can't." and I refused to accept their excuses.   

 

It's also kinda strange that our Council consistently refers special needs scouts to one of two units in the council.  Mine and one other on the other end of the council.  So, I'm not worried.  Ding me all you wish, until you've tried it, you will never know.  The format applies to all people, not just the special needs ones.  There's a whole world out there of people with special needs, not just those you see first hand. A Servant Leader doesn't get to pick and choose who they will serve, they serve them all.

[gumbymaster]

@@Stosh

 

Every once in a while (ok, fairly often) you give me some real food for thought.  The kind of head-slap why didn't I think of that.  My Son's troop is having a devil of a time getting some (committee/parents) tasked with organizing some of the fund raising events, and here you go and describe a (extra challenged) scout running your popcorn sales.

 

I tip my hat to you.  Each time I think I have a handle on boy-led, you push it one further.

Edited October 21, 2015 by gumbymaster