I need thoughts on problems with a den leader

[jbelanger86]

I find myself in a really bad place. I am the assistant cubmaster and the committee chair of a cub scout pack. My husband is the cubmaster. We took over this pack in Jan because they asked us to step up and save this pack, which we have. In Jan we had 11 scouts and now after recruitment we have almost 50. Here is the problem.

 

We were approched by our district commissioner about this issue and now it needs to be addressed. This has to do with our Webelos 2 den leader, who was a part of this pack when things were not going well and the bsa rules were not being followed. We knew she didnt want to change the way she did things and we did try to influence her to start following the program correctly and she just caused problems. We were just going to let her take her boys to boy scouts in Feb (parents were ok with this) and then we would have her out of the pack, therefore all the leaders that would be left are all for making this pack a productive one.

 

Then we recruited two new webelos 2 when we had our fall roundup. This den leader caught wind of it and immediatley asked me for their phone numbers so she could add them to her den, the problem there is that her den is still working the old program. I had a conversation with her husband about it (he is the charter rep) and i told him that we would be creating a second den for the new webelos for them to work the new program and earn arrow of light. This made him really mad. He doesnt seem to understand the new program because he was mad at the fact that his son and the webelos twos had been working for 2 yrs on their arrow of light and now these new boys could just come in and earn it.

 

So then we were approched by our district commissioner about "complaints" that had been made. So now we are in a big mess over the weebelos program changes and a den leader who is not comming to terms with the new requirements. Later that night, she posted a photo on Facebook where she had taken her webelos 2s to a radio station and in the photo, was one of the new boys.....

 

She just seems to be going her own way and not talking about this with us and not wanting to come to an agreement on what should be done. Im at my witts end.

 

Tonight we have a meeting with the district executive and two of the district commissioners. I just wanted some thoughts from the outside.

 

*When I took over this pack, i made it very clear that all rules were going to be followed and i would run the pack the way it should be.

 

**we have given this den leader and the boys options. We offered the new boys the chance to stay in the new den and work the new program or go straight to boy scouts, and we also offered options to the current den working the old program, we said they would join the new den and work through the new program or they could continue to work their old program with the current den leader, but I informed the current den leader that the boy's advancement would not be signed off on without solid proof that they had completed all the requirememnts correctly. (this was said because we have also had issues with her not giving the boys a quality program. Just last week, she informed my husband that they were doing their "outdoor" activity requirement. She had them playing on a dirt pile while she gossiped with some of the moms of the boys scouts.)

[Sentinel947]

Post approved. Understand that your DE is your go to guy here. Most of us do not work for the BSA. Caveat emptor.

[Eagledad]

BEEN THERE DONE THAT, so I'm giving an opinion based from my experience. I agree this is a DE level situation. However, I think you are too close to the 2nd Web den leader's business. Let her run her den her way and be done with her. She knows the program guidelines and rules. So unless you see some kind of risk of harm, let her run her den the way she interprets those guidelines and don't waste a second thought. As for the two new scouts, explain the options (not your personal feelings) to the parents and let them choose the direction they want to go and don't waste a second thought with them either. Trust me there are so many other aspects of the Cub program that need your attention.

 

I know how close we get to the program when we put so much of our time and effort into it. It hurts when adults seem to pridefully defy our guidance. But you should consider that maybe you are part of the problem. Remember, the main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing. Let her go.

 

It takes practice separating our emotions from the performance of those we think we are responsible for. But, there is a lot of leeway in how a Den leader can run the den and sometimes one of us has to set our pride aside for the good of the program and the scouts. It appears the den leader isn't going to back down. She may in fact be reacting to you with obstinance. She is not worth the sleepless nights. And remember, you can sit back with popcorn after she crosses over to the troop and how the Troop leaders react to her when she tries this with them. 

 

Barry

Edited October 1, 2015 by Eagledad

[meyerc13]

Wow, sounds like an ugly situation, especially with the DL's husband being the chartered org rep.  The chartered Org picks the Committee Chair, the Committee and Chartered Org need to pick the Den Leaders based on the Cubmaster's recommendation.  That's the way it is supposed to work.  Since the Chartered Org rep isn't likely to pick your side on this, I'm afraid you might not have much leverage unless someone else in the chartered org is sympathetic to your case.  You could always threaten to quit since the Chartered Org Rep is undermining what you are trying to do with the Pack, but is that really in the best interest of everyone?

 

I hate to say it, but this sounds like a problem that will quickly resolve itself once the DL's kid crosses over.  Yeah, it isn't a great situation for the new Scouts in that Den, but if that's the way their parents want to go, what can you do about it?

 

Good luck with whatever comes out of this.

 

 

[blw2]

Also writing from experience having been Assistant Den Leader, Assistant Cubmaster, Cubmaster, & Defacto Committee Chair.... and having worked with Scouters that refuse to play with the "program"

 

I'm tending to agree.... don't put so much thought in it.

It's a tough situation for sure, especially with the complicated web of relationships within the key 3

 

Backing up....

are the boys in danger? (NO, from the sounds of it)

are the boys having fun? (and maybe doing some learning or growing along the way once in a while)? (they're in 2nd year WEBELOS and haven't dropped so I'm guessing the answer is YES)

 

Then my simple advice is to remind yourself that this is Cub Scouts.  When you boil it down, my two earlier questions are what matters most I think.... (don't get me wrong, I believe in following the program, I wear a necker with my uniform and don't wear Jeans with the shirt... etc... I just don't see how it matters all that much in the big picture)

 

The new 2nd year WEBELOS are the most troubling issue to me.

a den of two doesn't serve them well at all.  There's just not enough energy and diversity to make it worthwhile... IMHO

so considering that we're only talking a few months, I'd suggest you focus your energy where it can make a difference.

Edited October 1, 2015 by blw2

[jbelanger86]

thank you for your replies.

 

DE is going to be there at the meeting we are having tonight.

 

I know its hard to disconnect feelings, but isnt that what we are supposed to be doing? The reason why we do it, to help these boys grow up to be great young men?

 

As far as she goes, we never intended on bringing this up actually, my husband and i discussed it and we were just gonna let her get her boys to the troop. The main problem is that per BSA rules on transitions webelos to the new program, she cannot take the new boys into her den. That is pretty much the issue that we are having.

 

Sometimes the adults make this not fun, but then when i see how much fun my wolves and the other boys are having, when i see their smiles, thats when i rememebr why i like it so much. I hate politics

[jbelanger86]

Also writing from experience having been Assistant Den Leader, Assistant Cubmaster, Cubmaster, & Defacto Committee Chair.... and having worked with Scouters that refuse to play with the "program"

 

I'm tending to agree.... don't put so much thought in it.

It's a tough situation for sure, especially with the complicated web of relationships within the key 3

 

Backing up....

are the boys in danger? (NO, from the sounds of it)

are the boys having fun? (and maybe doing some learning or growing along the way once in a while)? (they're in 2nd year WEBELOS and haven't dropped so I'm guessing the answer is YES)

 

Then my simple advice is to remind yourself that this is Cub Scouts.  When you boil it down, my two earlier questions are what matters most I think.... (don't get me wrong, I believe in following the program, I wear a necker with my uniform and don't wear Jeans with the shirt... etc... I just don't see how it matters all that much in the big picture)

 

The new 2nd year WEBELOS are the most troubling issue to me.

a den of two doesn't serve them well at all.  There's just not enough energy and diversity to make it worthwhile... IMHO

so considering that we're only talking a few months, I'd suggest you focus your energy where it can make a difference.

 

Exactly! I dont want the new boys to be excluded from a good program. They have a right to work the program and have adults there to help them with that journey. I just want all the boys to get as much out of scouts as they can

[gumbymaster]

First, Let me congratulate you on a FANTASTIC recruiting effort.

 

We can (and are) all armchair quarterback on this one.  Clearly your upcoming meetings will determine what you want to do.

 

The largest potential impediment you have is the COR.  If he's not going to side with you, and it doesn't sound like he would, your options are very narrow.

  1. Unless the violations are so egregious that the council would revoke the charter, the council and DE really have their hands tied.

  2. You could trying going above your COR to the IH.  It would depend on the IHs familiarity with Scouting, but generally i'd expect them to support the current COR.

  3. As others have said, you could just make sure those two Second Year (and/or AOL) parents are ok with going as is - it would be a challenge to get an AOL Den Leader for just two boys, and then just let it go.

  4. You can make a big stink about it and create a challenging environment for your new recruits.  Probably be removed by the COR and have no future influence.

  5. You could leave / transfer /or try to split the pack to resolve the issue.

 

In the end, I think that you do this for the boys.  If that's the case, as long as those two families are on-board with the plan; you've done your best to get the correct solution in place.  We can't win them all.  Just do the best you can for the rest.

 

We do it for the boys, and as long as they can be kept out of the collateral damage, they won't know and they will have a great time - no matter what the mechanics of the program are.

Edited October 1, 2015 by gumbymaster

[blw2]

one more comment.....

throwing out all the other stuff for a moment.

 

If I were faced with an existing 2nd year WEBELOS den working the old program (that's what we're doing too, by the way)

and only had one den

and I had 2 new 2nd year WEBELOS boys join fresh with no prior scouting history

I would merge them into the existing old program Den.

& i would give them the options;

a) just join in and have fun....forget advancement

b) work hard and catch up under the old program

c) work hard in the new program for AOL. (I'm sure the DL can handle it, considering most will need to be "homework")

 

because, either option b or c is going to require a tremendous amount of homework to get done.  I would never expect that either option would be completed only during the meetings for these boys.

and with option b, they just have to earn WEBELOS.... nothing says they must have AOL except it may technically delay their joining a troop based on age.  BUT I'll bet if they want it they could earn the old AOL too.... you'd only have to look the other way on a couple things, such as "be active in your den for X months...".... and ask your DE, but I'm thinking that if that's what it takes to get these boys to join a troop, they would likely even support it!

[CalicoPenn]

Let's first straighten up your own house first - you are not the Committee Chair and Assistant Cubmaster - they are mutually exclusive positions - choose one (never point out the plank in someone else's eye when you have a plank of your own in there).  The only positions in a Pack (officially) that can have one person doing two positions in a Pack is Committee Chair and Chartered Organization Rep (and that would be each other's position).  My suggestion is Committee Chair - I'm only guessing that you are the ACM to back-up your CM husband in case he's got to be away but the beauty of the Pack Committee Chair role is that this is already one of the duties of the Committee Chair so there is no real need for you to also be ACM,

 

Next, the elephant in the room - as someone else has already stated, the Den Leader's husband is the Chartered Organization Representative - unless you have a very good relationship with the person who assigned him that role, then your meeting tonight with the District Commissioner and the District Executive and any other poobah that might be there is already, forgive the term, trumped.  The Charter Organization Rep has some real power if they know how to use it and has the backing of the "Institutional Head".  Get this guy's back up enough tonight and not only is it possible that you will no longer be part of the unit, it can be possible that none of the Cub Scouts will have a unit to go to tomorrow - and the DE will have a lot of groveling to do with his boss over how he let a unit just dissolve like that.  The District Commissioner?  Let's be frank here - even if the husband was not the COR and the COR was not going to be there, the District Commissioner, the Unit Commissioner, the District Chairman, the Council Commissioner - none of the grand poobahs except the Scout Executive has any real power over a unit - they can advise but that's about all they can do.  They can try to mediate, but that's all they can do.  If this Den Leader and her COR husband are determined not to change between now and February, the very best thing you can do is to do what you have been planning all along - ride it out.

 

I'm curious to know more about those complaints - where did they come from and how did they get to the District Commissioner?  Most parents have enough trouble keeping track of Pack leadership let alone knowing who is in District leadership - if they are members of the Pack, why haven't they come to you first?  If they aren't part of your unit, why are you even worried about them?  Let the District Commissioner and DE rant and rave all they want - stick with your plan - I can tell you want to do the best thing for the Cubs - and you have a plan to get there - it's not going to happen overnight and you know that as well - the important thing right now is to know that your goal is within sight - there are Scoutmaster's still struggling after 3 to 5 years to get their Troops operating at boy-led - you've only got 5 months to wait it out.

 

My suggestions then are three-fold:

 

One - If you don't know who made the complaints, find out and see if it's something you can handle within your Pack (with complaining parents - and be prepared to steer them to a unit more their liking) or if it's coming from outside which you can then promptly ignore (if they're outside your Pack structure, it's really none of their concern).

 

Two - cancel tonights meeting - tell the DC and DE thanks for the thought but you've got things planned out and are working that plan and you don't need them to muck things up.  If they insist, let them show up and gab at each other while they wonder where you folks got to, or if you're not feeling particularly charitable, direct them to the nearest sandbox and tell them to bring a mallet.

 

Three - Leave the new Web 2 in the Den but work with them separately to make sure they are getting the advancement and recognition they deserve - If the other members of the Den earned their Webelos Badge before June 1 and are still working the old program, the new Webelos can have fun with them but won't earn the Arrow of Light - but none of the requirements in Arrow of Light are that onerous and the families can work on most of them separately and still give these boys the chance to earn the Arrow of Light - let them work on the requirements under the auspices of the Cubmaster and let them be active in the existing Den. 

 

The current DL is not doing anything wrong in regards to her past Den - if those boys earned that Webelos Badge before June 1, they can keep working the old program to earn Arrow of Light.  The new boys can't work the old program for advancement (but they can for fun) and it is a bit of a burden to expect a Den Leader to plan for two different advancement programs in one meeting - easily solved by having the CM handle the advancement portion of the year for those two boys.

 

The BSA itself says it best, I think:  Do what's best for the Boys.

Edited October 1, 2015 by CalicoPenn

[qwazse]

Agree with the others that this is not a hill to die on.

 

Encourage the DL to keep the bar raised for all the boys to the best of her ability. Accept that as a CC, you may have to endure a little missing the mark from the volunteers.

 

Advancement is the last of your concerns. Safety and smiles - live for that.

 

See, didn't that just make you fill a bit happier?

 

What you need from the DE is a list of neighboring troops whose SM/SPL's you can call to recommend you a den-chief or two (or maybe 5 given your unit's size). The most seasoned/highly recommend boy goes to your Web II's if at all possible. (If there's a seasoned female venturer out there ... one with, maybe, camp staff experience ... that might work too.) This will do the most to help your boy's crossover into a troop with some skills under their belts.

[Stosh]

Woe to the troop that inherits this problem.

[Eagle94-A1]

As a former DE who was contacted about a similar and asked my SE how to deal with it, I can tell you that "it is a unit problem."

 

Good luck.

[F-P]

Woe to the troop that inherits this problem.

 

Well said.

[cyclops]

Agree with the others. Unit problem. Don't sweat the small stuff. Wait for 'graduation' and then carry on.

Congratulations on the most dramatic turnaround for a unit that I've ever heard of. Enjoy that and ignore the noise.