Casino Buses using public parks as Park and Ride, where Scouts meet. What should we do?

[ParkForKids]

Thank you everyone. I like the ideas of selling popcorn and may even has a dummy being swished in between. Joking aside, I looked around and can't find anything on BSA that would advise what to do. I assume BSA assumed that all selected locations are safe. This should be explicit on the Youth Protection Course.

Everyone, if you have 10 seconds of time,please sign this petition if you feel fit for the betterment of the community  and the nation as a whole - Your voice counts, especially when we tell the City Council, it is getting national attention.

https://www.gopetition.com/petitions/prohibit-casino-bus-and-casino-goers-using-westminster-ca-public-parks-as-park-and-ride.html

[scoutldr]

If you sell popcorn, make sure and do it when the buses are loading...they still have all their money then.

[Rick_in_CA]

Have you approached the Casino?  They may not be aware of the problem.

 

If there's not another location that you can use, you may need to get aggressive.

 

1- Have the boys play hide and seek (with a buddy!) among their cars.  Be sure that the parking patrons know it.

2- A water balloon fight might dampen their enthusiasm for parking where the scouts play.  You do have some scouts with really bad aim, right?  Most effective during winter months, when the water freezes afterwards and makes the lot slippery.

3- Are they going to an Indian casino?  Loud cowboys and Indian games would carry on their theme.

 

If your can't convince them to move elsewhere, set up a table and really harass them: sell popcorn.

So your solution to this problem is to harass the bus riders and vandalize their cars??? How very scout like.

 

Plus, I don't get the safety issue here (the traffic and parking issues, those I get). So there are people you don't know using the same park as your kids. Get over it. If you don't want that, don't use a public space. The whole stranger = danger thing is way over blown.

 

We need to fight against the whole paranoia culture that sees danger for our children around every corner. It's hurting our kids! It's why scouts can't climb trees, use a little red wagon or go anywhere without an adult escort (I was just told by someone from the council that patrol hikes are going to require adult supervision unless all patrol members are 14 or older - not confirmed yet).

 

My neighbor used to take his son (who is 8) to the park to play catch or use the swings. He stopped because he got tired of all the paranoia around an adult male with a kid at the park on a week day. His son would get worried mothers asking him if he was alright and who was that man? They even called the police about a "strange man" at the park once because he was sitting on a bench watching his son play on the swings. That is absurd.

[JoeBob]

So your solution to this problem is to harass the bus riders and vandalize their cars??? How very scout like.

 

How do you get 'vandalize cars' from playing hide and seek?  Judgmental much?  Sense of humor lost at the dry-cleaners?

 

When I lived near a local night spot and folks would park in my yard to avoid paying parking fees, I developed several more disruptive ways of discouraging someone from parking in a given location.  Those methods will not be detailed on these pages for fear of inspiring the young and less responsible.  Something to do with the air inside tires slowly and quietly finding its way outside.

Edited September 25, 2015 by JoeBob

[ParkForKids]

So your solution to this problem is to harass the bus riders and vandalize their cars??? How very scout like.

 

Plus, I don't get the safety issue here (the traffic and parking issues, those I get). So there are people you don't know using the same park as your kids. Get over it. If you don't want that, don't use a public space. The whole stranger = danger thing is way over blown.

 

We need to fight against the whole paranoia culture that sees danger for our children around every corner. It's hurting our kids! It's why scouts can't climb trees, use a little red wagon or go anywhere without an adult escort (I was just told by someone from the council that patrol hikes are going to require adult supervision unless all patrol members are 14 or older - not confirmed yet).

 

My neighbor used to take his son (who is 8) to the park to play catch or use the swings. He stopped because he got tired of all the paranoia around an adult male with a kid at the park on a week day. His son would get worried mothers asking him if he was alright and who was that man? They even called the police about a "strange man" at the park once because he was sitting on a bench watching his son play on the swings. That is absurd.

 

Hi Rick,

I am on your side on your general philosophy. We have become a paranoid society. Look like I can take some input from you. Would you be kind to answer the followings:

1. Would you conduct your weekly scout troop  meetings, consisting of 6 years old brownies and cub scouts,  at a large park and ride location exclusively for gamblers who are strangers, come and go? This is a public park and not Casino park and ride location. It is being taken over by Casino Bus Operators to squeeze extra profits. Casinos wouldn't care because they are far-away and liability are not on them.

 

3. What are our rights? Just tell the parents and the younger scouts who run around to be more on alert every moment a stranger come by(which is very often), to deal with it?

 

2. What is your advise?  We can't move yet because we need time to find suitable location for 150 scouts.  Relocation disrupts many families travel routes. The unit was there to allow certain group of families to join scouting.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Lu Ta

[qwazse]

@Lu Ta

 

Don't get too enthused by some of the ideas (or overly rankled by replies to them).

 

BSA does not have all the "site inspection" rules that GS/USA has. So, use the safety guidelines for brownies to identify if there's something you would normally do that would conflict with encroachment on the park.

 

Here's some steps (they worked for me when my family had to deal with rolling projectiles - a.k.a. cars left in neutral -- crashing our fence, and even though we're on opposite coasts I think they will work for you):

 

Contact one of your town councilman. He or she can help you put this on the docket at their next meeting. Or, maybe he can put you in touch with the person on your park board. It's likely he'll get in touch with the Mayor on your behalf.

Present your petition respectfully. Frankly, I don't think signatures from beyond your community are of any use.

Ask them to relay your concerns to the casino owner and the bus companies. It's what elected officials are supposed to do so people's emotions don't get in the way of making the town a better place. (And rubber-encased air remains that way, @@JoeBob )

 

What you need, besides pictures of cars and buses, is documentation that someone instructed bus companies to use the park.

In fact, you may want to ask some casino goers about how they knew to park there. So, make some friends. See if anyone can show you instructions that they received directing them to do what they did.

 

Needless to say, if those instructions came from an elected official, you can ask him if he'll be campaigning on this next term!

 

Eventually, the casino will be asked to make some improvement. They may pawn off responsibility at first, but with persistence and courtesy, they might figure out a way to be a good neighbor. That may include a stand for selling popcorn -- and cookies!

[cyclops]

If there's not another location that you can use, you may need to get aggressive.

 

1- Have the boys play hide and seek (with a buddy!) among their cars.  Be sure that the parking patrons know it.

2- A water balloon fight might dampen their enthusiasm for parking where the scouts play.  You do have some scouts with really bad aim, right?  Most effective during winter months, when the water freezes afterwards and makes the lot slippery.

3- Are they going to an Indian casino?  Loud cowboys and Indian games would carry on their theme.

 

If your can't convince them to move elsewhere, set up a table and really harass them: sell popcorn.

JoeBob,

I'm not sure how anyone can interpret this in terms other than your intent to be unfriendly to the other park patrons. That "really bad aim" comment (wink, wink) is particularly troubling. Most of all, that part about making the parking lot slippery. That's a safety issue that affects EVERYONE, not just the people you want to "really harass". In addition to being unfriendly, that is malicious.

How can we interpret this as being within the bounds of Scout Law or Scout Spirit? I am astonished.

 

If someone parks on your property you are within your rights to call law enforcement to issue citations or even for police to have them towed. If they are merely parked on the street in front of your house they are subject to whatever parking laws are enforced there. In neither situation does it warrant deflating their tires in some kind of vigilante action. Talk about setting examples.....

 

Those comments about Indians...I don't even have words to respond.....

Edited September 25, 2015 by cyclops

[desertrat77]

Though I certainly understand how pesky some of the casino patrons are, I don't see the city council making any kind of ruling. And if they do, they'll side with the casino.  

 

The park is a public place and folks can chose to be there nor not. 

 

The casino has more money and can afford better lawyers/PR people to speak at the city council meeting, and to make calls and "influence and shape events" before hand.   The casino is not going to give up its free bus stop easily.  

 

Sorry to say, it's time to find another place to meet.

 

Joe Bob is right--popcorn sales!   This is that rare occasion that BSA popcorn is a better value for the dollar than losing it slowly at the blackjack table (you hold at 19, dealer has 20...you hold at 18, dealer has 19...drip, drip, drip). 

Edited September 25, 2015 by desertrat77

[ParkForKids]

@desertrat77

if that is the case, we'll check to see if the casino makes exceptions for those Scouts less than 18 yrs old to take the bus or not. Casino patrons can use some pop-corns at the roulette table. Putting the money on pop-corn will sure be a lesser risk.

[desertrat77]

@desertrat77

if that is the case, we'll check to see if the casino makes exceptions for those Scouts less than 18 yrs old to take the bus or not. Casino patrons can use some pop-corns at the roulette table. Putting the money on pop-corn will sure be a lesser risk.

Lu Ta, absolutely!  At least they'll go home with something!

 

Kind of reminds me of when I was a Tenderfoot scout and selling programs at the local university football games.    They let us scouts into the exclusive/tailgate parking area where the important boosters had their RVs and pre-game beverages.   They'd invite us in the RVs and chat for a bit, buy a couple programs and include a big tip.  

 

Though everyone conducted themselves like ladies and gentleman, I can't imagine two Tenderfoot scouts today wandering around a bunch of RVs, with no adult escort, selling programs to distinguished alumni who were in the process of enjoying their third 7/7.   Times have certainly changed.

 

It was also my first introduction to drunk college students, especially the ones hanging around outside the stadium.   Interesting to reflect, regardless of how far in the tank they were, they were always kind to us scouts.   They just wanted to talk or tell stories.

Edited September 25, 2015 by desertrat77

[desertrat77]

Post script--Lu Ta, I forgot to say earlier, please let us know how it turns out, and thanks for your courage and leadership.

[Rick_in_CA]

How do you get 'vandalize cars' from playing hide and seek?  Judgmental much?  Sense of humor lost at the dry-cleaners?

 

When I lived near a local night spot and folks would park in my yard to avoid paying parking fees, I developed several more disruptive ways of discouraging someone from parking in a given location.  Those methods will not be detailed on these pages for fear of inspiring the young and less responsible.  Something to do with the air inside tires slowly and quietly finding its way outside.

Oops. I misread your comment and thought you were advocating throwing water balloons at cars. So I apologize for saying you were suggesting vandalizing cars.

[Rick_in_CA]

Hi Rick,

I am on your side on your general philosophy. We have become a paranoid society. Look like I can take some input from you. Would you be kind to answer the followings:

1. Would you conduct your weekly scout troop  meetings, consisting of 6 years old brownies and cub scouts,  at a large park and ride location exclusively for gamblers who are strangers, come and go? This is a public park and not Casino park and ride location. It is being taken over by Casino Bus Operators to squeeze extra profits. Casinos wouldn't care because they are far-away and liability are not on them.

 

3. What are our rights? Just tell the parents and the younger scouts who run around to be more on alert every moment a stranger come by(which is very often), to deal with it?

 

2. What is your advise?  We can't move yet because we need time to find suitable location for 150 scouts.  Relocation disrupts many families travel routes. The unit was there to allow certain group of families to join scouting.

Would I hold a weekly cub pack meeting in a parking lot? No. Would I hold one in a city park next to a parking lot? Probably yes. Look, I think you have a legitimate beef about the parking congestion, it's the automatic "strangers are dangerous" that I am pushing back on.

 

Why do you have to be "more on alert every moment a stranger come by"? The idea that strangers are automatically threats is wrong (in fact there are studies that show that children that are willing to ask strangers for help (directions, etc.) are safer than kids that aren't). Your kids are in greater risk of harm from the drive to that park, then from those strangers passing by.

 

You choose to meet in a public space. Then don't complain about other members of the public also using that space unless their behavior is inappropriate. And simply being near children is not inappropriate behavior.

 

If the park and ride activities for the casinos is seriously disrupting the communities ability to use the park because of congestion and lack of parking, then complain to the city. Document it (lots of pictures of full parking lots, lines of buses waiting, etc.) and make your case. And in the meantime figure out how to deal with it because city action will come slowly if at all.

 

Oh, and definitely sell popcorn!

Edited September 25, 2015 by Rick_in_CA

[JoeBob]

JoeBob,

I'm not sure how anyone can interpret this in terms other than your intent to be unfriendly to the other park patrons.

They're not park patrons.  They are abusing the parking lot meant for folks who are using the park.

 

That "really bad aim" comment (wink, wink) is particularly troubling. Most of all, that part about making the parking lot slippery. That's a safety issue that affects EVERYONE, not just the people you want to "really harass". In addition to being unfriendly, that is malicious.

How can we interpret this as being within the bounds of Scout Law or Scout Spirit?

Picky, picky, picky.

 

I am astonished.  Good.  I met my goal for today.

 

If someone parks on your property you are within your rights to call law enforcement to issue citations or even for police to have them towed. If they are merely parked on the street in front of your house they are subject to whatever parking laws are enforced there. In neither situation does it warrant deflating their tires in some kind of vigilante action. Talk about setting examples.....

The lord helps those who help themselves.  Did you miss the part about that technique NOT being shared here for fear of teaching scouts bad behavior?

 

Those comments about Indians...I don't even have words to respond.....

Need to borrow a headdress of a Colt?  Or are you one of those that thinks that 'Redskin' is an offensive word?

 

Rick: I can see how I was not clear.  Sorry for being testy today.  Your courtesy appreciated.

Edited September 26, 2015 by JoeBob

[Stosh]

Seriously, I don't see anything wrong with selling popcorn to everyone as they step on and off the bus.  The buses show up on a regular time table so the boys will know exactly when their shift needs to show up to sell.  It's the best of both worlds, The boys sell popcorn the the gamblers take their chances with each sales pitch.  If it were me, I'd pay my winnings to get those pesky munchkins out of my face every time I took the bus to the casino.