Pins on Adult Uniform

[Stosh]

Or maybe I should have said, just keep asking until you find someone that will give you the answer you want to hear.

[MattHiggins]

Or maybe I should have said, just keep asking until you find someone that will give you the answer you want to hear.

I admit that I'm not really sure what your point is.

 

I do appreciate your passion for the program and think we're on the same page--if you're going to do it, do it right.

 

I asked this question because I wanted to know the official policy. I was worried about my uniform, not anyone else's. When I was confident I got the right answer, off came my parent pin for my son's Light of Christ award. I wanted to get it right on my uniform because I want to lead by example. There were plenty of people here who had the go ahead and wear it opinion. The pin is still off even though I got the answer I rather hear.

 

I just wanted the official ruling  . . .  the opinions just came out anyway

Edited September 28, 2015 by MattHiggins

[TAHAWK]

Thanks @@TAHAWK, I did not find that reference earlier. Must have searched the wrong section of the guide. Section 3 has "other pins for non uniform wear ..." So I thought the mentor pin would be listed before or after that.

 

@@Cambridgeskip, we're a nation full of iconoclasts, but we really do love one another.

 

The written material on uniforms and insignia is hardly a model for clarity or completeness.  Some people are not very good at their  jobs.  Becuase I saw one reference after another to the Mentor pin being for civilian wear only, I kept looking.  But if you have no clue about the answer . . . .

[cyclops]

Thanks LYV, I'll give that a try. It might help with my view of these things. I note that complaints about photos posted in this thread don't begin to compare to what I saw in Issues and Politics. How that stuff was allowed to be posted is beyond my ability to understand. But you're right. Maybe it's best to just avoid that forum altogether.

 

 

 

If I put a mentor pin on my uniform does that mean I'm no longer in uniform and can drink alcohol?

Stosh, according to what seems to be your reasoning, the answer is 'yes'. The pin has violated the uniform code.

According to my view, the answer is 'no'. The uniform is still there and intact.

But it is not relevant to me because I do not drink alcohol. I'm sensing that alcohol is an important part of life for many members. If so, I'm sorry for you.

[vumbi]

Try it, you'll be glad you did. Seriously, Issues and Politics forum is the source of something almost 'evil' in these forums. I cannot fathom what possessed (and that term might be appropriate) someone to create Issues and Politics in the first place. But if anyone can show me one thread in that cesspool that has provided real benefit or enlightenment to scouters and scouts, I'll reconsider.

 

I guess if my name is causing problems, maybe I should change to something easier?

 

I just thought a while about my offer and I retract it. Someone will have to show me a lot more than one thread that provided benefit or enlightenment to scouters and scouts before I'll reconsider my condemnation of that forum.

Edited September 28, 2015 by ya lazima vumbi

[Stosh]

Thanks LYV, I'll give that a try. It might help with my view of these things. I note that complaints about photos posted in this thread don't begin to compare to what I saw in Issues and Politics. How that stuff was allowed to be posted is beyond my ability to understand. But you're right. Maybe it's best to just avoid that forum altogether.

 

 

Stosh, according to what seems to be your reasoning, the answer is 'yes'. The pin has violated the uniform code.

According to my view, the answer is 'no'. The uniform is still there and intact.

 

Which is the whole explanation of fuzzy logic.  There are those who think one pin is too many, others think a pin or two is no big deal and there are still others further down the continuum who don't care one way or the other and still further on down are the Banana Republic generals who will put on whatever bling they can find to make themselves look important.  Everyone along the continuum think they are right.

 

But it is not relevant to me because I do not drink alcohol. I'm sensing that alcohol is an important part of life for many members. If so, I'm sorry for you.

 

Jump to any conclusion you wish and feel sorry all you want.... I don't drink either.  Oh, I take that back, I only drink at home on special occasions.  I am conceal carry so I can't drink anywhere else.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Stosh

[Rick_in_CA]

If I put a mentor pin on my uniform does that mean I'm no longer in uniform and can drink alcohol?

 

If I wear a neckerchief instead of a tie on civilian clothing can I drink alcohol?

 

How about a "class-B" camp t-shirt?  can I drink alcohol?

Actually whether you are in a BSA uniform has nothing to do with can you drink alcohol. From the GTSS:

Alcohol

The following statement was approved by the National Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America:

It is the policy of the Boy Scouts of America that the use of alcoholic beverages and controlled substances is not permitted at encampments or activities on property owned and/or operated by the Boy Scouts of America, or at any activity involving participation of youth members.

See? Nothing about wearing a uniform.

 

If you go home after a BSA event, there are no BSA rules that prevent you from having a glass of wine with dinner, even if you haven't taken your uniform off yet. If you are at a troop camp out, you still can't have a beer even if you are not wearing a BSA uniform.

 

I don't understand where the idea the "no alcohol rule" was somehow tied to being in uniform came from.

[TAHAWK]

TAHAWK, are you saying that the references in official BSA literature to an "activity uniform" (known to some as "Class B") no longer exist? When did that change occur?

 

Lord no.  There is an activity uniform.  However, a the Handbook explains, it's whatever clothing is appropriate "When you're headed outdoors . . ."(The Boy Scout Handbook, 12th Ed., at p. 33.

 

There was an "Activity Shirt," but it went away due to lack of interest.

[Stosh]

I admit that I'm not really sure what your point is.

 

If one is truly concerned about making sure that what they are doing is "correct" just keep asking people and eventually you will find someone who will tell you it's okay to do it that way.  Depending how far down the continuum you go, it will get progressively more difficult, but not impossible.

 

I do appreciate your passion for the program and think we're on the same page--if you're going to do it, do it right.

 

I asked this question because I wanted to know the official policy. I was worried about my uniform, not anyone else's. When I was confident I got the right answer, off came my parent pin for my son's Light of Christ award. I wanted to get it right on my uniform because I want to lead by example. There were plenty of people here who had the go ahead and wear it opinion. The pin is still off even though I got the answer I rather hear.

 

I just wanted the official ruling  . . .  the opinions just came out anyway

 

Have I gone off to a scout activity and not worn scout socks?  Yep.  Did I know it wasn't correct? Yep, but I didn't get the wash done and didn't have a pair to wear so either I go with civilian socks or dump the whole uniform.  I made a judgement call, wore long pants, wore darkish socks and hoped no one noticed.

 

I do make it point that when I do teach I teach the material correctly and if the BSA calls for full uniform, I teach full uniform to my boys.  I do not accept anything but the best from my boys.  After all they have promised that.  Why would I not expect the best from myself as well?  I too have promised that.

 

So if you ask for the Company Policy on uniforming, I will probably come across hard-nosed, because I have promised to do my best to teach it correctly and probably for no other reason.  There are times when I don't agree with the policies of the BSA, but I still teach the policy as is.  Do I take flack on the forum for it?  Yep.  But I take flack from the parents and the boys at times as well.

 

I don't do well with self-justified fuzzy logic of other people.  I'm going to go to the District Dinner and not wear my scout uniform so I can have a cocktail with the meal.  Well I have been to District Dinners where I was the only one in uniform and felt out of place at a scout function.

[TAHAWK]

I have seen "activity uniform" defined as a Scouting-related t-shirt and Scout pants. I probably have also seen it defined as a Scouting-related t-shirt and any pants. Which, if either, is or was "official", I don't know. Our troop uses the term "Class B", defined as our troop t-shirt (which as far as I know, every youth and adult has at least one of) and Scout pants. I believe that if a troop t-short is for some reason unavailable, some other Scouting-related t-shirt also counts. Some events are designated for the "Class B uniform", as is one meeting per month. (I know a troop that reverses that, and wears "Class B" at every meeting EXCEPT one per month, which is "Class A.")

 

I think it is also safe to say that BSA National does not care if someone uses the term "Class B", even if they don't use it themselves. As someone pointed out earlier, there is a licensed BSA retailer named ClassB.com (I believe) and they will sell you customized troop t-shirts to use as part of your activity uniform. I am sure the BSA happily accepts whatever the licensing fee is, not to mention the revenues they get every month from ClassB's standing ad in Scouting Magazine. I am sure that if the term "Class B" was somehow deemed contrary to the Scouting program, National would not take this money and sacrifice their principles. (And yes, I am smirking as I type that.)

 

The terms seem to communicate, so why anyone would get upset over mere labels that communicate is beyond me.  

[Stosh]

Actually whether you are in a BSA uniform has nothing to do with can you drink alcohol. From the GTSS:

See? Nothing about wearing a uniform.

 

If you go home after a BSA event, there are no BSA rules that prevent you from having a glass of wine with dinner, even if you haven't taken your uniform off yet. If you are at a troop camp out, you still can't have a beer even if you are not wearing a BSA uniform.

 

I don't understand where the idea the "no alcohol rule" was somehow tied to being in uniform came from.

 

And yet we have scouters that feel it's okay to drink alcohol at District/Council dinners as long as one doesn't wear the uniform and in my example of being at a State Park with adults in one camp site and boys in another, that must mean by letter of the law in G2SS the adults if not in uniform can have a beer.

 

Don't doubt my words, there have been scouters that have self-justified this very thing along with the District/Council Dinner issue.

[TAHAWK]

BSA explicitly says no blue jeans with the Cub Scout uniform, yet the majority of boys are taught by the adults to wear the blue jeans with the uniform shirt.  

 

And before anyone jumps on the "The adults never teach the boys to wear blue jeans with their uniforms" bandwagon, a boy shows up with uniform shirt and blue jeans.... SM/DL says nothing...Lesson learned, end of discussion.  It's as simple as that, the adults don't care, so the boys don't either.  Those adults who do make a stink are treated in their units the same way they are treated on this forum.

 

And did it help when BSA sold Cub Scout denim trousers?

 

Stosh, the fact that some do not understand the alcohol policy does not change that policy.  Wearing or not wearing the uniform is unrelated to the alcohol policy.  It applies to non-uniformed adults as well as Scouters.

Edited September 28, 2015 by TAHAWK

[Stosh]

And did it help when BSA sold Cub Scout denim trousers?

 

Not even when the Scout catalog explicitly stated that even the blue jeans that BSA sold were to be worn with parts of the BSA uniform.  

[Eagle94-A1]

Actually whether you are in a BSA uniform has nothing to do with can you drink alcohol. From the GTSS:

See? Nothing about wearing a uniform.

 

If you go home after a BSA event, there are no BSA rules that prevent you from having a glass of wine with dinner, even if you haven't taken your uniform off yet. If you are at a troop camp out, you still can't have a beer even if you are not wearing a BSA uniform.

 

I don't understand where the idea the "no alcohol rule" was somehow tied to being in uniform came from.

 

 

Actually I read about a case where an SM was put into the Ineligible Volunteer Files after being seen in a bar, in uniform after summer camp. Thankfully he followed the appeal process and explained why he was in a bar, in full uniform, and was reinstated: it was the closest place from where his troop bus broke down that had a phone to call a tow truck for the bus, and parents to pick up Scouts.

[NJCubScouter]

The terms seem to communicate, so why anyone would get upset over mere labels that communicate is beyond me.

Beyond me too. Some people just like to get upset I guess. At the same time, I think we agree that the BSA needs to be a little more precise in its terms sometime. Multiple plausible meanings and ambiguities interfere with communications, although they do generate business for a certain profession.

 

 

Not even when the Scout catalog explicitly stated that even the blue jeans that BSA sold were to be worn with parts of the BSA uniform.  

Were to be worn? Or were NOT to be worn?