Pins on Adult Uniform

[NJCubScouter]

I wouldn't rely on Madison Avenue to set BSA policy.  It wouldn't be wise.  

I'm not relying on anyone to do anything. What the BSA's motivations may be is up to them. (On issues like uniforms, anyway.) I'm merely reporting what the BSA is licensing and putting in their magazines, and on how it impacts on the common understanding of a term that is in common use in Scouting with, at least up to a point, a common understanding of what it means. It is clear that the BSA has no problem with my troop having its own t-shirt for use on designated occasions, although I'm sure they would prefer the shirts be made by someone who gives National a piece of the action. (I believe that the maker of our t-shirts does not, but the maker of our new customized embroidered neckerchiefs does.)

[Krampus]

@@NJCubScouter BSA not only prefers it, but they prohibit suppliers from using BSA logos and artwork flat out.

 

Just last fall we had troop gear made up by a large online retailer (think commercials on TV). When the artwork was uploaded they initially took the order. Within an hour I received a phone call that they cannot do the work due to copyright violations. They were not an approved retailer.

 

Later this spring I believe they were added to the BSA short list.

[Twocubdad]

Regarding the hand salute branch of the thread:

 

I can't imagine that if a kid were running across the campsite in nothing but a pair of whitey-tighties, that when he heard "To the Colors" being played he snapped to attention, faced the music and instinctively offered a Scout salute, that there is any veteran in the country who wouldn't look upon that scene with pride and a smile.  I certainly can't imagine jumping the kid about his uniform (privacy and youth protection policies would be up for discussion, however.)

 

The thing I see missing from this discussion (all -- what are we up to now -- 6 or 8 branches) is reasonableness.  I believe the above Scout has acted reasonably.  Modesty aside, if his greatest transgression is to have offered a Scout salute instead of placing his hand over his heart, I'd call that a win.  He was making more effort to show respect for the flag than most folks ever do.  Been to a ballgame lately? When did it become appropriate to scream like an idiot at the end of every phrase? 

 

Truth is, Stosh, I'm not convinced that offering a Scout salute when out of uniform -- however that is defined -- is disrespectful to veterans.  Veterans offering a hand salute (and the law applies to active-duty military personnel out of uniform, too) is a new thing -- 2008.  I don't read this as being an exclusive privilege offered only to veterans, rather a courtesy extended to them. 

 

SEC. 594. CONDUCT BY MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES AND VETERANS OUT OF UNIFORM DURING HOISTING, LOWERING, OR PASSING OF UNITED STATES FLAG.Section 9 of title 4, United States Code, is amended by striking `all persons present' and all that follows through the end of the section and inserting the following: `all persons present in uniform should render the military salute. Members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute. All other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, or if applicable, remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Citizens of other countries present should stand at attention. All such conduct toward the flag in a moving column should be rendered at the moment the flag passes.'.

 

According to this, "all other persons (emphasis added) present should face the flag and stand at attention with the right hand over their heart..."  I don't see an exemption for the Boy Scout salute here.  Do we really think the intend of this law was to include Scouts in "all others" or is this just sloppy legislation?   Are we going to follow this latest* law and teach our Scout to place their hands over their hearts when the flag passes?  Hell no.  We're going to go for the greater good/big picture and teach flag etiquette as we know it.  Just because some bozo congressman gets a letter from the local VFW and inserts one paragraph into a seven-year-old, 600-page defense authorization bill without really understanding the total ramifications of that paragraph, doesn't mean we're going to ditch saluting the flag.  At least I'm not. 

 

Perhaps it's a big lesson for an eight-year-old to understand, but with the federal code at God knows how many volumes plus regulations and state law on top of that, not to mention to policies and rules from all the private organizations we interact with, everyday each of us has to Do Our Best to understand and follow the spirit of what society requires of us. 

 

Personally, I have no more interest in getting wrapped around the axel by Section 594 of the National Defense Authorization Act of 2008 than I do the Guide to Advancement.

 

 

*Actually this legislation was amended again in 2009 to include the playing of the national anthem.  Apparently congress didn't get it right the first time.   

Edited September 29, 2015 by Twocubdad

[desertrat77]

I think most people attempt to be respectful to the flag, even if they make errors.   I try to assess their intent, more so than their technique.   Though the latter can certainly be eye-opening at times!

 

Interesting discussion/perspectives re the hand salute.   Though vets are authorized to use the hand salute in civvies, I play it by ear.   If the majority of folks present are civilians and placing their hand of their heart, I do the same.   If it's a big crowd and mixture of civilians and vets, I'll render the hand salute.

 

Also mulling over the non-vet rendering the hand salute scenario.   I rather doubt I'd say anything.   They probably don't know any better.   Or they might outright fib about being a vet.    Is it right?   No.   Is it worth a dust-up in public?   Probably not.   I don't think it encroaches into stolen valor, etc.

 

Now, if someone is going about in a mil uniform, and it's clear from bearing/behavior/dress/appearance that he's not a vet, a chat may be in order...

[Stosh]

From the US Flag Code:

 

"The Salute

To salute, all persons come to attention. Those in uniform give the appropriate formal salute. Citizens not in uniform salute by placing their right hand over the heart and men with head cover should remove it and hold it to left shoulder, hand over the heart. Members of organizations in formation salute upon command of the person in charge."

 

So as I stated before, if one is in uniform they render the organization's salute.  When they are not in uniform they place their hand over their heart.  If one is wondering on the interpretation, what is the appropriate formal salute?  Appropriate to the organization they represent.  Otherwise I would think they would have simply stated the "Those in uniform give a hand salute."  Appropriate indicates there are different types of formal salutes.

 

Then one also needs to take into account what "Citizens not in uniform" means.  What constitutes a civilian in uniform?  Scouts? auxillaries? patriotic organizations?  ??

 

It is clear there is a distinction between civilians in and civilians out of uniform......

 

None of this pertains to military and military veterans because the US Flag Code is intended solely for civilians.

[Horizon]

You can be assured that your suspicions are correct and it is a very sad example of what an Eagle project should be.  The SM of this boy is an Eagle scout with 2 palms..... The boy's two older brothers are Eagle scouts, .... and his dad is the SM.  It was his older brother that I had work an extra 6 months proving to me he was Eagle material before I would sign off on a recommendation for him.  I sometimes wonder which the the adults was the one that felt I expected too much leadership and was removed....only to be replaced by this boy's dad.... Welcome to BSA politics  and Paper Eagles

 

And by the way, the boy in the full-uniform picture is the Eagle scout that wears my WB beads....

 

The boy on the off-road vehicle without a helmet, in violation of the G2SS?

 

[Rick_in_CA]

For me, I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. When I see a mistake in protocol, I assume that people are trying their best, and are not trying to be disrespectful. I would never chastise a stranger in public about their "disrespect" in such a case. Besides being rude, there may be facts that I am not aware of (and just because someone doesn't look like a vet, doesn't mean they are not. Vets come in all shapes and sizes*).

 

When I see a man sitting a dinner with a hat on, I assume he has a good reason (I know he might not, but I try to give him the benefit of the doubt). He might have religious reasons, or a medical condition. Or it might be as simple as being in a restaurant and having no good place to put his expensive hat other than on his head (when was the last time you saw a hat rack at a restaurant?). Life is easier if you don't look for reasons to be offended and assume people are trying too do the right thing unless given a reason not too. A Scout is Kind.

 

That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to model and teach proper protocol. But we need to make sure we also teach tolerance of the "mistakes" of others. One, because it's kind, but also because sometimes it's us making the mistake and not the person "showing disrespect".

 

* I had the privilege to meet an acquaintance's grandmother once. A tiny, sweet lady. She was a US Army nurse in WW2. If I remember correctly, she landed on the beach at Normandy on D+4, and a few days later earned the bronze star and a purple heart (all she would say was "we were helping some wounded and there was some artillery fire". You don't get a bronze star just for "some artillery fire"). I wish I remembered more about her, but it was some twenty years ago. She isn't what comes to mind for most people when they think "WW2 vet".

[Rick_in_CA]

None of this pertains to military and military veterans because the US Flag Code is intended solely for civilians.

Aren't military veterans civilians?

[Krampus]

Retired active duty.

[Twocubdad]

SEC. 594. CONDUCT BY MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES AND VETERANS OUT OF UNIFORM DURING HOISTING, LOWERING, OR PASSING OF UNITED STATES FLAG.Section 9 of title 4, United States Code, is amended by striking `all persons present' and all that follows through the end of the section and inserting the following: `all persons present in uniform should render the military salute. Members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute. All other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, or if applicable, remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Citizens of other countries present should stand at attention. All such conduct toward the flag in a moving column should be rendered at the moment the flag passes.'.

 

 

 

 

 

From the US Flag Code:

 

"The Salute

To salute, all persons come to attention. Those in uniform give the appropriate formal salute. Citizens not in uniform salute by placing their right hand over the heart and men with head cover should remove it and hold it to left shoulder, hand over the heart. Members of organizations in formation salute upon command of the person in charge."

In 1993 Congress specifies "Citizens not in uniform...." but in 2008 says "All other persons present...." So in light of conflicting, ambiguous, inconsequential or poorly crafted law or policy, we get to decide which law to follow? Up to a point (and noting there is absolutely no penalty for violating the Flag Code) I agree with that.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Twocubdad

[Stosh]

The boy on the off-road vehicle without a helmet, in violation of the G2SS?

 

I'm pretty sure the picture was posed for the photographer.  He had safety glasses, ear plugs and gloves for every scout who showed up and worked on the project and the 3 men (one of them in the picture) that cut down trees had additional leather protection, high quality ear protection, face shields and hard hats besides to go with their chainsaw work..  The only people who were not in safety equipment were the ladies that hosted in the food tent.

[cyclops]

Horizon, lol, the way I 'read between the lines' on that photo was that it is a photo of Stosh and one of his scouts on the vehicle. I suspect that's why he knows so much detail about it.

But I admit I could be wrong about it.

Edited September 30, 2015 by cyclops

[Stosh]

Naw, I hate chainsaws.  Never used one in my life.  The Eagle's dad was assigned dropping trees and cutting them up, the boys and I were assigned to do the hauling to the pick-up point where the city crews hauled them away to be chipped and mulched.  The gentleman in the picture was the one assigned to the pond and getting all the junk out of the pool so the DNR could come in and stock it with trout.  The Eagle's mother was assigned the food tent.  There was yet another group that mowed up after the clearing of brush and mowed down to the ground..  The Eagle was so well organized the project only lasted one day. but he had enough people to cover the entire 2 acre park.  He had it down to the point where he had a pre-project team go in and blaze what trees to drop and what areas to clear.  He consulted with a forester and a naturalist from the local university to come in and do an environmental impact survey of the area before he started and the DNR was consulted about the stocking of the pond.  The whole project was done for the City, it was an abandoned park once owned by a veterans group that couldn't take care of it any longer so they gave it to the County who ignored it for 20 years who then gave it to the City who ignored it for another 20 years.  The Eagle went in and cleaned up the 40 years of neglect. 

 

The picture above was taken by the local newspaper photographer who came out with a reporter to cover the scoop.  I have no idea how much posing was done in the picture, the Eagle was working with the pond crew when the reporters showed up, I was off in a different area hauling brush.

[Stosh]

Horizon, lol, the way I 'read between the lines' on that photo was that it is a photo of Stosh and one of his scouts on the vehicle. I suspect that's why he knows so much detail about it.

But I admit I could be wrong about it.

 

You are wrong, all registered scouts were in full uniform including neckers.  The gentleman in the picture was not a scout...no uniform.  The only time I saw the Eagle is when he rotated around to each of the work groups to make sure they understood what needed to be done and check on their progress.  If a crew got their assignment done, he had another one ready to be assigned and directed.  We were kept very busy all day long.  The only break anyone got was to get water and when the crew was called to the refreshment tent for lunch..

[cyclops]

I don't know about that. From your earlier post it seems clear that the boy is one of your scouts. You said it yourself. Horizon was merely commenting on the lack of a helmet. That, combined with your statement that the uniform was inappropriate...

As for the adult, I was thinking about the other guy behind the one who IS wearing the protective gear.

 

 

 

"Someone should have told this scout that full field uniform is not proper to be doing heavy park clean up in.

 

In case anyone wishes to know, the first picture is of a scout doing his Eagle project while I was SM"

Edited September 30, 2015 by cyclops