Pins on Adult Uniform

[gumbymaster]

Well, as long as we're sending this topic off in 4 different directions at once ...

 

Re: I&P on the forum (at least I am indicating which tangent I'm on)

 

I think, at some level, almost everyone here is here with the intent of learning how or helping others to offer a good program for the Scouts.  Maybe I've been fortunate, but I've not yet encountered anyone specifically looking ONLY to troll the users.

 

I&P lets us have a place to vent our issues, maybe it's not always as scout-like as it should be over there, but by having it, it at least contains the damage.  It's the warning sign to the new members (of the forum or scouting) to say "there be dragons here".  Then the more program focused topics can stay that.

 

What I personally try to remember is to differentiate the persona of a person in I&P from the rest of the forum.  Some of the people I have most disagreed with in I&P are still some of the most helpful people on topic specific issues.  I try to compartmentalize and not allow a bleed over.

 

I also try, regardless of the level of disagreement, to not get personal in the attacks.  I think everyone here is a good person, at least those I have interacted with so far.  I may try to challenge an idea put forth; I hope I am not challenging the idea's proponent - at least not directly and by design.

 

As with most of us, whether it's the program offered, the uniform worn, the advice given, ... I try to do my best, and recognize that I do not always succeed to the standards of others.  I work to improve.

[BDPT00]

Stosh wrote:

 

 

 

I don't do well with self-justified fuzzy logic of other people.  I'm going to go to the District Dinner and not wear my scout uniform so I can have a cocktail with the meal.  

 

Tahawk is correct.  Other than common sense, there is no reason why you can't wear your uniform and have your cocktail.  The uniform doesn't matter.  What does matter though (with or without the uniform) is if Scouts are present. 

[NJCubScouter]

I think any further discussions of other sections of the forum should either be in that section or in Forum Support and Announcements, and if one wishes to share questions or comments with the forum owner and/or moderators, either by private message for general matters or flag report on specific threads.

[Stosh]

Beyond me too. Some people just like to get upset I guess. At the same time, I think we agree that the BSA needs to be a little more precise in its terms sometime. Multiple plausible meanings and ambiguities interfere with communications, although they do generate business for a certain profession.

 

 

 

Were to be worn? Or were NOT to be worn?

 

I guess I'm not too worked up about when and were in as much as what is and what isn't the official uniform.

 

I posed the question in another place and no one has bothered to answer so I'll ask again.  IF, and that is a big IF, the privilege of hand saluting the American Flag while in civilian clothing is reserved only for those who have faithfully served our country in the armed forces, doesn't it deserve a proper definition of what constitutes a full official uniform of the BSA so the boys who are not in FULL uniform know whether to salute with the scout salute or use the civilian hand over the heart salute.  The boys that have been taught that they can use the scout salute whenever and wherever they wish show an arrogance that they rank up there with our honorable veterans.  Which for me personally I haven't the time of day to correct such ignorance.  It's a matter of attitude, not whether or not it's a uniform.

 

My boys wear full uniform for all scout activities, period.  At summer camp once, two of my boys were a tad late getting back from the waterfront and showed up for closing flags wearing their scout shirt and swim trunks.  My boys in full uniform saluted with the scout salute, the two in uniform shirt and swim trunks saluted with the hand over the heart salute.  It was rather unfortunate that the SM of the troop next to us said to my two boys, "If you have the shirt, you salute with the scout salute."  to which one of the boys said, "I would salute that way if I were in full uniform.  But I'm not in full uniform."  The other SM chose at that point to drop the subject, I suppose because he was wearing blue jeans.

 

Sure my boys push the envelop, play the games and such but when it comes to the US Flag, uniforms and respect for veterans, they know the scoop.  No boy ever carries the Flag or calls the commands at flags unless he is in full uniform.  If no one fits that bill for some reason, they don't do flags.

 

So, then, what salute are boys being taught when they are wearing activity shirts and not field uniform shirts?  What salute is being taught when they are wearing only half the uniform.  Or what about just one piece of the uniform?  Just the shirt they do one salute, just the socks or just the belt they do what?

 

What about "class-B" t-shirt and blue jeans?

 

I just make it easy.  In uniform you use the scout salute anything else, you use the civilian salute out of respect for our veterans.

[qwazse]

So @@NJCubScouter, you and I, when we're at flags, let's put hand over heart for the pledge. When a scout asks us why, we'll say "Some guy on the internet said this pin on my BSA shirt collar here makes me out of uniform!"

 

Just for funzies. I will if you will    so long as we promise to post our scouts' reaction (with their permission, of course).

[Stosh]

So @@NJCubScouter, you and I, when we're at flags, let's put hand over heart for the pledge. When a scout asks us why, we'll say "Some guy on the internet said this pin on my BSA shirt collar here makes me out of uniform!"

 

Just for funzies. I will if you will    so long as we promise to post our scouts' reaction (with their permission, of course).

 

Out of respect for our veterans and not just funzies, I'll do it too.  So will my boys.

[vumbi]

"Some guy on the internet said this pin on my BSA shirt collar here makes me out of uniform!"

LOL, and as we all know, 'some guy on the internet' is always THE authority on whatever subject because he's on the internet.

 

Stosh, you asked a question but you never answered it with your own answer.

Yes or no, if you add a pin to the collar of a uniform, does that mean you can drink alcohol?

 

If 'yes', then it means that addition of the pin takes you 'out of uniform' for official purposes and you can drink alcohol.

If 'no' then it means that with the pin addition the official uniform status is retained and you cannot drink alcohol.

So which is it for you?

Edited September 28, 2015 by ya lazima vumbi

[Stosh]

Okay, okay.  The Packers are playing tonight on Monday Night Football.  I'm having pizza and a beer.  If it makes everyone happy, I'm going to take my mentor pins off my jac-shirt and put them on my uniform, then put on my Banana Republic general scout uniform shirt on, (shirt only) and try not to slop pizza down the front of it.

 

Ya happy now?  

[vumbi]

Welcome to the real world. I'll be glad to help clean up afterwards.

[Rick_in_CA]

Okay, okay.  The Packers are playing tonight on Monday Night Football.  I'm having pizza and a beer.  If it makes everyone happy, I'm going to take my mentor pins off my jac-shirt and put them on my uniform, then put on my Banana Republic general scout uniform shirt on, (shirt only) and try not to slop pizza down the front of it.

 

Ya happy now?  

Go Packers!

[desertrat77]

Okay, okay.  The Packers are playing tonight on Monday Night Football.  I'm having pizza and a beer.  If it makes everyone happy, I'm going to take my mentor pins off my jac-shirt and put them on my uniform, then put on my Banana Republic general scout uniform shirt on, (shirt only) and try not to slop pizza down the front of it.

 

Ya happy now?  

Stosh, as a gesture of solidarity, I'll do the same.   I'll wear my sole shirt that displays my four mighty incredible knots

 

Exceptions:   I'm popping some corn and pulling for the Chiefs.   Coke instead of beer, but only because I need to drive to pick my kid up from an activity later tonight.   Also, I regret to say I have no mentor pins to improperly wear.  I'll make up for it by wearing five or six temporary patches dangling from my right pocket button.  Mil issue green socks instead of BSA issue (I've done this for the last several years, true story...though I've retired, I just can't bring myself to throw them away).

[TAHAWK]

Stosh, if the boys have been misinformed, as you hypothicate, why are they showing arrogance by doing what they have been (incorrectly) trained to do?  Ins't it on whoever gave them the wrong information?

 

 

Yes or no, if you add a pin to the collar of a uniform, does that mean you can drink alcohol?

 

Answered above.  The uniform, or lack, is irrelevant.  The presence of Scouts (or Cubs or Venturers or Explorers)  is determinative.

[Stosh]

If one were to go back to my posts, I have stuck with what the US Flag Code indicates is proper and been chided by some forum members.  I have stuck with what BSA is proper uniforming and have been chided by some of the forum members.  So, what it boils down to is what have the forum members been teaching the boys and I for one do not blame the boys for improper training.  

 

One must always remember that if they are going to lead by example, they had better know what they need to be doing to set the best example possible for the boys.  (We're all human, none of us is perfect, but that doesn't mean we give up and do it just any old way we feel like it.)

 

I really don't care what other unit leaders do when it comes to flag ceremonies, how they instruct the boys to wear or not wear the uniform and a variety of other issues.  Let's just say with the processes in place what training the leaders get and how they translate that into program is not an exact science by any stretch of the imagination.

 

As others have alluded to: every boy should have a well trained and informed leader.  Not everyone is lucky enough to get it.

 

So, I'm destined to forever take my lumps, but I'm still a firm believer it's for the boys, so I keep doing it.

[NJCubScouter]

Funnily enough, the ad that is at the top of my screen right now is for ClassB, with pictures of customized pack t-shirts and patrol patches, and the tag lines "Manufactured Under License From the BSA", "Sign Up For Coupons" and "Click Now!", with the exclamation point. When you click Click Now!, some of what you get (in addition to the 8-year-old-or-so boy sporting some of the wares for sale) is "As Seen in Scouting Magazine!", not to mention an 800 number that says "Let's talk t-shirts!"

 

So as Tahawk and I were discussing, although there are often communication problems within the BSA and on this forum, with people using different terms to mean different things and not acknowledging the other meanings, there doesn't really seem to be a problem in this case.

[Stosh]

They could have gone with T-Shirts 'R' Us and still gotten BSA approval for the branding rights.  After all a lot of marketing is designed to separate a fool from his money and insulting them is always an optional tactic.  "Be Wise, buy our Fantastic Product" which loosely translates into "You are stupid if you don't."

 

I wouldn't rely on Madison Avenue to set BSA policy.  It wouldn't be wise.