Changing a Troop's Culture, Balancing Boy-led versus Adult-led

[gumbymaster]

While I do understand your point on two-deep vs. no one-on-one, I've had several conversations on this point before, I'm not sure I'll take quite the hands off approach give here when it is an offical meeting, in a person's home.  Thus it is the event; as say opposed to those that think you need two adults in each car traveling to the event.

 

In this case, it was a "door" conversation as people were getting ready to leave; and yes, I fully acknowledge, that (1) The conversationshould not have been there or then; (2) I need to learn how to better and more politely extricate myself from the conversation as the scope expanded.  (Something I should also probably learn for this forum, or at least I&P, as well).

[Stosh]

I coached the boys for the EBOR and for some it really paid off.    The one boy did EXACTLY what I told him to do.  I sat in on the EBOR as SM.  The boy came in stood at attention and saluted.  The Board members didn't know what to do.  They looked back and forth at each other and finally one says, "As you were,... You realize that as a scout it is not appropriate to salute other scouts, just the flag."  To which the boy replied, "Not according to the Boy Scout Handbook, sir.  Would you like me to show you, I have my book right here."  They were a little rattled.  They then started with a question, to which the boy elaborated to the point where they had to interrupt him to ask the second question.  They got in 4 questions.   I kinda felt sorry for them.  The other boy came in and stood there looking around waiting to be told to sit down.  He then proceeded to answer with one or two word questions maybe for some a whole sentence.  I kinda felt sorry for him.  The Board members spent the whole hour trying to pull information out of him so they could pass his board.  

 

Just because you coach doesn't mean the boys are going to listen.  The first boy went on to be the Eagle Scout speaker at the Golden Eagle Banquet fundraiser for the Council.  I coached him to keep it at 10 minutes so no one would have to interrupt him to quit so they could move on.  

[Stosh]

No one-on-one.  If there are 3-4 boys in the room and a second adult out of sight you should be good to go.  Read your gut, are these boys you can trust?

 

If I have a boy that I have had words with about something, then I make it a point always have a second adult around.  That same boy would not ever ride in the car with me without a second adult as well.  G2SS is for my protection.  I don't worry about the kids, just me.  That's how I've lasted 45+ years as a volunteer working with youth.

[Eagledad]

I don't know, coaching to the point of making the BOR feel uncomfortable, is a bit much for me. I don't know about your EBOR, but ours isn't looking to make it a bad experience. If the scouts have a general idea of their skills, they are good to go. I advise all SMs observe an EBOR so they have a general idea of what to expect. My coaching was more of giving nervous scouts (and parents) enough confidence to sleep the night before.

 

Barry

[blw2]

Yes the trasnistion from CS leader to BS leader is VERY HARD, even for those of us who know better. Why I kinda harp on the balencing between guiding and mentoring vs taking over. I did the taking over once before, way back when I was a brand new ASM. I was acting more like the SPL, and some of my friends who were youth started getting ticked off. Other leaders had to have a cup of coffee and worked with me.

 

As for the questions, most are standard with me. The only coaching I do prior to a BOR is to tell them to relax, think, and take it easy.

 

As an FYI Patrol meetings and other DAY (emphasis) activities do not require adults. Only overnight activities.

I think that the transition is hard, mainly because of the poor training for Scouters and parents on boy lead and the patrol method....

I know it's more complicated than that, but I feel that it wouldn't need to be.

 

I'm a cub scouter, and only one for a relatively short amount of time compared to some....

But I'm also the type of person that is patient in research.  As with most things, when I get passionate about something I tend to search out info and learn.  Many folks don't have the same patience or drive.

 

I'm fairly certain I'm the only one in our unit that visits here regularly....

I also have listened to many podcasts from scoutmastercg, listed to interviews of greenbar bill, read some books, etc....

 

I'm not saying that I'd make a great SM.  Far from it....There's certainly a personality component and other variables to that, along with nuances and experience that I just do not have..... but in terms of understanding the base concepts, I've got a fairly decent handle on it.  At least the ground level stuff that a lot of folks will take a long time to get....

especially considering that the troop will be their only exposure in training, and so many troops are at least partially clouded with adult inference....  

most folks will never invest the time.

[Eagle94-A1]

I think that the transition is hard, mainly because of the poor training for Scouters and parents on boy lead and the patrol method....

I know it's more complicated than that, but I feel that it wouldn't need to be.

 

 

Part of the issue is not understanding boy lead. Especially parents.

 

But the biggest challenge is CS leaders. You spend  X number of years as a CS leader being trained to run meetings, trips, etc, Then become a BS leader and have to sit on your hands and let them do it.  Very hard to transition.

 

Or as Master Yoda would say, "you must unlearn what you have learned."

[Krampus]

I think that the transition is hard, mainly because of the poor training for Scouters and parents on boy lead and the patrol method....

I know it's more complicated than that, but I feel that it wouldn't need to be.

 

 

Exactly why during recruiting we are very clear on such issues. We let the parents know flat out how we will transition them and their kids from the hands-on, nose-ring approach of cubs, to the more autonomous, boy-led approach we use in scouts. We have a few parent meetings during the spring to walk them through stuff while the boys are in their first year program. This has helped reduce the shock. It has actually lead to us getting more parents camping because they know they won't have to follow Timmy around everywhere.

 

Parents who find it hard to cope with this transition will pick a troop that is more adult lead.

[blw2]

Part of the issue is not understanding boy lead. Especially parents.

 

But the biggest challenge is CS leaders. You spend  X number of years as a CS leader being trained to run meetings, trips, etc, Then become a BS leader and have to sit on your hands and let them do it.  Very hard to transition.

 

Or as Master Yoda would say, "you must unlearn what you have learned."

my point exactly!... not understanding boy led..... well, that and the patrol method.

 

But when you get down to it it's not really that hard of a concept for any mature and thinking parent to grasp.

 

As I mentioned, I've done a fair bit of reading, and thinking, and discussing here and elsewhere.... for me what really cinched it was a short podcast..... story of likely no more than 2 or 3 minutes

 

With a little effort, I think a lot more consistency could be had form troop to troop by just making this better understood.

But yet we have boy led, we have patrols, we have adult led, and infinite variations in between.

[Stosh]

I don't know, coaching to the point of making the BOR feel uncomfortable, is a bit much for me. I don't know about your EBOR, but ours isn't looking to make it a bad experience. If the scouts have a general idea of their skills, they are good to go. I advise all SMs observe an EBOR so they have a general idea of what to expect. My coaching was more of giving nervous scouts (and parents) enough confidence to sleep the night before.

 

Barry

 

Both boys are best friends.

 

Both boys worked on their scouting ranks together.

 

Both boys wanted to Eagle at the same time and have their ECOH together.

 

Both boys finished at the same time.

 

Both boys were coached by me at the same time and heard the same words.

 

Both boys had their EBOR on the same night with the same panel of board members.

 

One boy chose to listen to what I had to say.

 

One boy chose to do his own thing.

 

The one who listened to what I had to suggest had a very positive EBOR experience.

 

The one who decided he knew better than my suggestions had quite a negative, but successful EBOR experience.

 

The point I was making was that my coaching style is not the end all to be all and when all is said and done the SM's might think they're God's gift to scouting, but eventually it always ends up the boy's decision and the results are because of the choices THEY make.  To me, the effectiveness of the SM and his or her own perceived self perception, right or wrong, good or bad, the boys making their own choices in life is what true boy led is all about.   It's all about the boys, not the leaders.

[Hedgehog]

Part of the issue is not understanding boy lead. Especially parents.

 

But the biggest challenge is CS leaders. You spend  X number of years as a CS leader being trained to run meetings, trips, etc, Then become a BS leader and have to sit on your hands and let them do it.  Very hard to transition.

 

Or as Master Yoda would say, "you must unlearn what you have learned."

 

There are a couple of ways to help with the transition:

• Emphasize boy-led when Webelos and parents visit
• Have the parents interact with the boy leaders (they are the best evidence that the program works)
• Get the new parents to trust the Adult Boy Scout leaders
• Have an ASM "chat" with the parents who come to meetings about the advantages of boy-led and how things work
• Talk to the parents about how the kids taking responsibility for themselves in scouts mirror how they have to take responsibility for themselves in school
• Tell the parents how great their kid did on the last campout
• Have the new leaders get trained
• Have current leaders demonstrate what boy-led means in front of parents ("have Bobby ask his PL what he need to do for advancement")
• Don't be afraid to "correct" adults not acting in boy-led ("Johnny can do that")
• Have the Scouts take pride in becoming independent
• Require adults to camp separately from the boys
• Run the adult patrol like a scout patrol -- it keeps the adults busy and busy adults can't interfere
• Make campouts an opportunity for the adults to enjoy each other's company -- all of our adult leaders have become friends and we would probably go camping together even without the boys. 

[gumbymaster]

I think that the transition is hard, mainly because of the poor training for Scouters and parents on boy lead and the patrol method....

I know it's more complicated than that, but I feel that it wouldn't need to be.

...

I'm not saying that I'd make a great SM.  Far from it....There's certainly a personality component and other variables to that, along with nuances and experience that I just do not have..... but in terms of understanding the base concepts, I've got a fairly decent handle on it.  At least the ground level stuff that a lot of folks will take a long time to get....

especially considering that the troop will be their only exposure in training, and so many troops are at least partially clouded with adult inference....  

most folks will never invest the time.

 

While the training helps, that's not all of it.

 

I grew up in a boy led troop; I'm an AOL & Eagle; I have 8 years of white stag leadership development training, including 5 on staff; I've been to National Camp School; Summer Camp Staff 9 years, Program Director for 3; 2 Pow Wows, 3 UoS and teaching this year, 4 years as a CM; MBC for 20 MBs; done IOLS, and just about all the on-line trainings there are; I'm on the Roundtable staff.

 

Knowing the right answer (with or without training) is not always enough, and this is why the CO and the Committee have to be very thoughtful in the selection of unit leadership.  On paper, I don't think a unit could easily get a better leader - but MY personallity, right now, is not ready for a role of more than parent/committee for the Troop; I am still too egar to want to help (even if that's limited to a directed evaluation of an activity); and as previosuly noted in this forum topic, I am in a position better than many to understand the problems in adult intervention.

 

I recognize this limitation in myself. I know that for at least a couple of years, my involvement with my son's troop needs to be non-uniformed, behind the scenes - and even then I have to constantly check myself.  MBC and Cubscouts is the right fit for that.  I'm working on my cub leader transition plan, working with the committee to find my successor, and then mentor them (as needed or requested).  When I get to the end of that path, I'll reevaluate where my son is in his scouting career, and where I best fit (with the troop, more district involved, UC), it will be interesting for me to learn where that is.

Edited September 26, 2015 by gumbymaster

[blw2]

the orientation & training I'm writing of, is for the parents and behind the scenes MBC's and such... as much as for SM and ASM

I'm contending it's the lack of specificity here in the existing program, that really leads to the rough start new adults have... and the wide variety of programs we have.

It really isn't that hard to get, but yet here we are...!

[Eagle94-A1]

Had a chance to talk to to my friend, and  he's good with me becoming SM,  now it's time to talk to the CC/COR

[Eagle94-A1]

Update

 

I had a conversation with the COR/CC. He is going to think about it and bring it not only to the troop committee, but the church board. The issue that may cause some challenges is that I am not a member of the church, nor of their faith. Scouting is truly viewed as an outreach program with the church, and the troop has attracted families to them. If I would be approved, I would be the first non-member as SM ever, and the troop has been around on and off, mostly on, for over 60 years.

 

Believe it or not, I do not have a problem with it, and understand where the church is coming from. Regardless of the decision, I am sticking with them.

[Sentinel947]

Update

 

I had a conversation with the COR/CC. He is going to think about it and bring it not only to the troop committee, but the church board. The issue that may cause some challenges is that I am not a member of the church, nor of their faith. Scouting is truly viewed as an outreach program with the church, and the troop has attracted families to them. If I would be approved, I would be the first non-member as SM ever, and the troop has been around on and off, mostly on, for over 60 years.

 

Believe it or not, I do not have a problem with it, and understand where the church is coming from. Regardless of the decision, I am sticking with them.

It's a big decision for them. Essentially the Troop is one of their youth groups. It's a big step for them to have a non-member effectively become a youth minister.