Changing a Troop's Culture, Balancing Boy-led versus Adult-led

[Stosh]

Well I'm going to do my best but if it turns into some sort of pissing match with the one ASM I'm just gonna let it be and I'm guessing it won't be long till my son, thus I, quit

 

If your son is one of the older boys, maybe he can get them on board and plan some really neat thing.  If you're the SM, it's your job to protect these boys from interfering ASM's.  Remember, they are YOUR ASSISTANTS, they are to do only those things that assist YOU!

[Eagledad]

So my idea is to build the patrols and let them decided for themselves what they want to do. If the older boys want to let the adults do everything, well good luck with getting me to do it but in any event the patrols that want to will be off doing patrol stuff so it won't be that much of an issue. 

It will be exciting to watch. Let us know how it goes.

 

Barry

[Renax127]

It will be exciting to watch. Let us know how it goes.

 

Barry

Well not so well so far, but next week we'll see.

 

My son is 11 and is really not happy with the amount of adult involvement. His first 2-3 camp outs the Scoutmaster gave each patrol a menu to use, holy cow did I get an ear full on the drive home.

[Stosh]

Well not so well so far, but next week we'll see.

 

My son is 11 and is really not happy with the amount of adult involvement. His first 2-3 camp outs the Scoutmaster gave each patrol a menu to use, holy cow did I get an ear full on the drive home.

 

With all the "training" BSA does to get it's leadership ready to work with the boys, it's surprising how much counter effort is done by ignorant adult agendas.  It would seem that one can't make this stuff up.

 

11 year old's first campout?  As far as I'm concerned, it can be PBJ for all three meals.  I would NEVER hand a menu to them.

 

If an 11 year old can see through this BS, why can't these adults?

[blw2]

I was having a conversation with my son's DL recently, doing some planning..... drifted into sort of a what-if.... suggesting in "hind site" that we could have done the WEBELOS experience much more as a boy-led patrol.

 

which drifted into a discussion of how nice troop life would be....

 

Anyway, I was discussing the concept or truly boy led, that is often discussed.... I told him the story that one of you posted, i forget who....

 

about when you go on a backpacking trip or a hike..... the boys have the map and compass and you are only bringing up the rear.... He made some comment like, oh boy, you hope they don't go the wrong direction.... I said so what if they do?  teaching moment....  More or less said that you hope through pre-planning and pre-coaching that they will have a good plan and follow it but you're not letting them march off a cliff, and so you set up camp in the new place called "lost", regroup, learn, and have adventure...

 

I'm not sure if he thought I was crazy or if it was an eye opener to boy led.... both have the same look 

[Stosh]

When I was a Webelos DL, I was also an ASM for a troop.  I ran my Webelos as a boy-led patrol.  They were involved in the planning and execution of all their pin learning and for a final fun activity for Webelos we did a campout.

 

We canoed out to a wilderness island.  The boys cleared out a place for a campsite, dug latrines, set up their own tents, cooked the meals they designed, shopped for and packed in the canoes, and did everything for the weekend.

I brought two scouts along with the adult dads just in case they would have been needed to step in and do the DC helping.  They weren't needed. 

 

After the meals they did their own 3 pan clean up.

 

Saturday night meal was baked potatoes, corn on the cob and steak.

 

The boys did ask me to do one thing, which I agreed to.  I cooked the steaks for them so they wouldn't ruin the expensive meat.

 

A major windstorm passed through on Saturday night and the adults did help the boys reset the tents that went down in the storm in the middle of the night.  Those two things were the only adult times of assistance.

 

These boys did as well as or better than a lot of NSP's in my troop, but then they were as Webelos adult trained and the NSP's tend to be youth trained.

 

2 of the boys mentioned this outing specifically in their ECOH as one of the high points in their scouting career.

[Renax127]

With all the "training" BSA does to get it's leadership ready to work with the boys, it's surprising how much counter effort is done by ignorant adult agendas.  It would seem that one can't make this stuff up.

 

11 year old's first campout?  As far as I'm concerned, it can be PBJ for all three meals.  I would NEVER hand a menu to them.

 

If an 11 year old can see through this BS, why can't these adults?

Oh there was much ranting about the "no pancakes" Sunday. I have been unable to camp with the troop till now due to some heath stuff, I'm all (well mostly) better now so I will be going.

 

I have the same thing with the pbj, it's about 40 hours they are gone, if teenagers can't successfully feed themselves on $10 each for that long they won't survive on their own.

[Stosh]

When I was a kid we would leave for a weekend camping trip the moment my dad got off work and wouldn't return until 5-6 pm on Sunday night.

 

I guess it's nothing more than making sure the boys get 2 nights of camping and that after the second night, seconds become precious and Sunday morning becomes reminiscent of the Retreat from Moscow.  

 

Pancakes on Sunday morning is the quick and cheater way of getting out of camp early.  Usually Sunday morning favorites include the Mountain Man egg bake or the Dutch oven French toast.  Of course none of those options are as good as the out-run-the-forest-fire approach of a Pop Tart and donut breakfast.

 

Seriously?..... where's the enjoyment in that?

[Renax127]

When I was a kid we would leave for a weekend camping trip the moment my dad got off work and wouldn't return until 5-6 pm on Sunday night.

 

I guess it's nothing more than making sure the boys get 2 nights of camping and that after the second night, seconds become precious and Sunday morning becomes reminiscent of the Retreat from Moscow.  

 

Pancakes on Sunday morning is the quick and cheater way of getting out of camp early.  Usually Sunday morning favorites include the Mountain Man egg bake or the Dutch oven French toast.  Of course none of those options are as good as the out-run-the-forest-fire approach of a Pop Tart and donut breakfast.

 

Seriously?..... where's the enjoyment in that?

For my kid he like pancakes on Sunday, it was the first thing he ever made and cooked on his own at a campout and will lobby pretty hard for them on Sunday so he can cook them. 

[qwazse]

.... I told him the story that one of you posted, i forget who....

 

about when you go on a backpacking trip or a hike..... the boys have the map and compass and you are only bringing up the rear.... He made some comment like, oh boy, you hope they don't go the wrong direction.... I said so what if they do?  teaching moment....  More or less said that you hope through pre-planning and pre-coaching that they will have a good plan and follow it but you're not letting them march off a cliff, and so you set up camp in the new place called "lost", regroup, learn, and have adventure...

 

I'm not sure if he thought I was crazy or if it was an eye opener to boy led.... both have the same look 

You're welcome. And, yes, I get that look. Fortunately, the older boys have plenty of stories about following an adult's navigation ...

[Eagledad]

These discussions seem to go off on a trail of their own. Suggesting a peanut butter sandwiches all weekend to steaks and Dutch oven French toast kind leaves one scratching their head. What?

 

When we are dealing with groups that are totally inexperienced with outdoor living, getting up to speed takes small steps. I have no trouble with the SM giving the scouts a simple menu for their first campout. It is a starting place that will guide them of foods they can take camping as well as the experience of aquiring  the food within a given budget. The problem I see is giving the scouts a menu their 2^nd and 3^rd campout and not allowing them to be creative and make decisions. That is why the scouts are bored. 

 

It has been said many times here that adults need to learn and grow faster from the scouting experiences than the scouts or they will become a barrier to scout growth. Add that most of the restrictions that adults throw at the scouts are motivated by adults fears. The number one adult problem in most troops is letting fear not allow them to learn and grow faster than the scouts. And I get it, being a boy run leader isn't as easy as we seem to paint it here on the forum. Eating simple healthy meals on camp outs can be a challenging task for new adults.

 

The solution is training themselves out of the fear. I've seen adults dictate in one way or another the menu selection of the scouts because they are afraid the scouts will basically starve. So the adults need to teach the scouts what kinds of foods are healthy and the different meals that can be made from those healthy foods. There are very simple menus that boys enjoy and are healthy. It may not be steak and potatoes, but it can be better than peanut butter sandwiches all weekend long. Or not.  But the point is for the adults to grow past their fears by learning and teaching so that the scouts are making the choices, not the adults. If scouts are to grow, the adults need to grow as well. At the point the adults quit growing, the troop program stops as well. That is really what the SM giving the scouts menus on their 2^nd and 3^rd campout is representing. The scouts should be capable of making some choices for their meals by the 2nd camp out. That is a simple lesson for boy run adult leaders in training. 

 

Barry

Edited September 22, 2015 by Eagledad

[Stosh]

Well not so well so far, but next week we'll see.

 

My son is 11 and is really not happy with the amount of adult involvement. His first 2-3 camp outs the Scoutmaster gave each patrol a menu to use, holy cow did I get an ear full on the drive home.

 

@@Eagledad.  @@Renax127 gave the impression it was not JUST the newbies that got the menus handed to them, it looks like each patrol got a menu to follow.  I'm thinking his son at age 11 has only been on 2-3 campouts and menu planning for everyone is done by the adults.  That is what I was basing my comments on.  I agree, small steps are in order, but this troop doesn't sound like it has taken the first one yet.

 

These discussions seem to go off on a trail of their own. Suggesting a peanut butter sandwiches all weekend to steaks and Dutch oven French toast kind leaves one scratching their head. What?

 

When we are dealing with groups that are totally inexperienced with outdoor living, getting up to speed takes small steps. I have no trouble with the SM giving the scouts a simple menu for their first campout. It is a starting place that will guide them of foods they can take camping as well as the experience of aquiring  the food within a given budget. The problem I see is giving the scouts a menu their 2^nd and 3^rd campout and not allowing them to be creative and make decisions. That is why the scouts are bored. 

 

It has been said many times here that adults need to learn and grow faster from the scouting experiences than the scouts or they will become a barrier to scout growth. Add that most of the restrictions that adults throw at the scouts are motivated by adults fears. The number one adult problem in most troops is letting fear not allow them to learn and grow faster than the scouts. And I get it, being a boy run leader isn't as easy as we seem to paint it here on the forum. Eating simple healthy meals on camp outs can be a challenging task for new adults.

 

The solution is training themselves out of the fear. I've seen adults dictate in one way or another the menu selection of the scouts because they are afraid the scouts will basically starve. So the adults need to teach the scouts what kinds of foods are healthy and the different meals that can be made from those healthy foods. There are very simple menus that boys enjoy and are healthy. It may not be steak and potatoes, but it can be better than peanut butter sandwiches all weekend long. Or not.  But the point is for the adults to grow past their fears by learning and teaching so that the scouts are making the choices, not the adults. If scouts are to grow, the adults need to grow as well. At the point the adults quit growing, the troop program stops as well. That is really what the SM giving the scouts menus on their 2^nd and 3^rd campout is representing. The scouts should be capable of making some choices for their meals by the 2nd camp out. That is a simple lesson for boy run adult leaders in training. 

 

Barry

 

Yes, my newbies may end up with PBJ their first few meals, maybe mix in a ham and cheese eventually and then they might even want to grill it after a while.  It's a progression as you mention.  

 

The Dutch oven French toast and Mountain Man B-fast were part of the Sunday morning topic.  The reason one may be scratching their head trying to reconcile this is because it's related to two different issues.  

 

By the way the Dutch oven French toast is made the night before so it's only getting charcoal going and cooking that can be done while tearing down camp.  MM B-fast can be prepped faster than starting charcoal.  Takes a bit more human intervention on Sunday, but still can be done in a reasonable amount of time.

 

My boys all have large plastic zip-lock bags they toss their dishes in on Sunday am meals and take them home to clean them.  Not really Kosher, but it does work and they get a better meal than Pop-Tarts and donuts which is done with the intent of not having to cook or clean up.  It's a nice compromise.  The boys don't mind cooking and the cleanup can be done later at home.

[Renax127]

@@Eagledad.  @@Renax127 gave the impression it was not JUST the newbies that got the menus handed to them, it looks like each patrol got a menu to follow.  I'm thinking his son at age 11 has only been on 2-3 campouts and menu planning for everyone is done by the adults.  That is what I was basing my comments on.  I agree, small steps are in order, but this troop doesn't sound like it has taken the first one yet.

 

I wanted to throw in here that my Webelos were planning their menu, facilitated by me, as Web I's. So my son had been helping to make his own camping menu's for over a year when he started Boy Scouts. And yeah every patrol was given a menu, along with who would be in their "patrol" what the tent assignments would be, etc.

[Stosh]

I wanted to throw in here that my Webelos were planning their menu, facilitated by me, as Web I's. So my son had been helping to make his own camping menu's for over a year when he started Boy Scouts. And yeah every patrol was given a menu, along with who would be in their "patrol" what the tent assignments would be, etc.

 

Sorry, @@Eagledad, I don't think even you can spin a positive light on this SM's approach to the program.  I sure hope @@Renax127 has other options for this scout than this troop.

[DuctTape]

Does the latest version of the scout handbook, fieldbook, or pl handbook have sample menus? I know all of my older versions do. In fact I am having fun re-creating some of the older recipes we used way back when. These are the on-the-move menus, not base camp. No dutch ovens or coolers or stoves.