Changing a Troop's Culture, Balancing Boy-led versus Adult-led

[Eagledad]

If it seems as if I'm critical of the SPL, I'm not. 

Yes, I knew that. You have been on this forum a long time and your character is firmly planted in the patrol method. 

 

As you know, this scouting stuff isn't easy, everyone especially the adults have to grow for the program to mature. It's a slow process and that is a test of our patience making the rewards seem all that farther away. But the evidence of the patrol method will become more obvious and you will gain respect as a result. As that happens, there will be less resistance to your ideals and the growth will pick up pace.

 

I tell this so that maybe you can take a moment to enjoy it now during the birthing pains instead of waiting 15 years to be stopped by a strange adult just wanting to say "remember me?".

 

Barry 

Edited January 7, 2016 by Eagledad

[Stosh]

If it seems as if I'm critical of the SPL, I'm not. Far from it as I think he is doing great job for the first time.  He took initiative. He planned it. He worked his people. And like any first time leader, mistakes were made. And I am hoping everyone concerned, grows from it. Especially some of the adults.  I am hoping and praying that some of the adults will back off and let them Scouts make their mistakes and learn form them.

 

ADDED

 

DANG just reread what I wrote and you're right, the bulk seems negative. i was trying to give a summary of the meeting, what could be improved, and what went really well.  I do not like ending things on a negative note, and try to end reflections on a positive note.

 

Want to emphasize the following.

 

1) I think the youth made a giant step forward. I hope it continues.

 

2) I think some of the worse offenders as adults are slowly seeing the light.

 

Is your SPL trying to take care of his boys?  Is he focused on helping his PL's be the best PL's they can be?  If one can answer those questions with yes, then there's no need to be critical.  On the other hand if one's expectations towards a certain performance goal is what is being considered here, it could be viewed as adult run (management) rather than youth led (leadership).  Failure can always be measured by adults as youth not meeting their standards of achievement rather than a development of a boy's leadership style.  A good start would be is the process motivated by an adult's vision for the troop or the boy's?  Anything that starts with the adults, usually ends up pretty much adult run and heavily influenced by adult led.  If one listens carefully to the comments, it is usally pretty evident.

[Eagle94-A1]

_{Thanks, definite birthing pains. IMHO the troop FINALLY has someone with knowledge, skills and abilities to get the job done as SPL. Not dismissing the KSA's of the previous SPLs. But the troop has had to grow their own older scouts, and they are starting to take the reins instead of the adults doing everything.}

 

_{As for is he helping his Scouts. YES to the best of his ability. Is he helping his PLs? Depends upon your point of view. Despite him not working with the NSPL, the SPL is relying on the TG to help the NSPL.}

 

_{In all honesty I don't think the troop has any expectations or goals except monthly camping activities save January ( annual lock in month) and doing a HA trip every three years (one year to recuperate, and two years to fundraise and prepare). For 2019, they have a lot of options, including WSJ.  (an aside, does the FL Sea base still have the program where you can charter the vessel, and if you have someone with a USCG license, they are counted as crew and you get a discounted charter rate?)}

 

_{Now I admit do have some things I'ld like to do. #1 being able to have ALL ( emphasis) leaders, sit down, and stay out of the way of the Scouts, drinking coffee and playing card games.}

[Stosh]

_{Thanks, definite birthing pains. IMHO the troop FINALLY has someone with knowledge, skills and abilities to get the job done as SPL. Not dismissing the KSA's of the previous SPLs. But the troop has had to grow their own older scouts, and they are starting to take the reins instead of the adults doing everything.}

 

_{It takes a lot of time to change the program emphasis and even more time for the boys to trust adults in the process.  It's one thing to announce that the troop will now be boy run and then find out that it takes years for the boys to quit saying, "Yeah, right."}

 

_{As for is he helping his Scouts. YES to the best of his ability. Is he helping his PLs? Depends upon your point of view. Despite him not working with the NSPL, the SPL is relying on the TG to help the NSPL.}

 

_{No, your SPL has it right at this point.  His TG needs to be super focused on helping the NSP PL be successful.  The SPL supports the TG.}

 

_{In all honesty I don't think the troop has any expectations or goals except monthly camping activities save January ( annual lock in month) and doing a HA trip every three years (one year to recuperate, and two years to fundraise and prepare). For 2019, they have a lot of options, including WSJ.  (an aside, does the FL Sea base still have the program where you can charter the vessel, and if you have someone with a USCG license, they are counted as crew and you get a discounted charter rate?)}

 

Oops, missed the point.  I wasn't referring to Troop Goals/Expectations, but those managerial (S.M.A.R.T) goals that adults often dump on the troop/patrol leadership.  How many activities did they attend?  How many patrol meetings were held?  Did they function in getting the job done as outlined by the SM/committee by-lws.  I was instead referring to the leadership of the SPL/PL's.  Do the boys really follow them, work with them, like them, want to be part of their patrol? Will turn to rather than some adult? etc.  For me, that is how I measure success in their POR.  Sure there is a part that measures for performance in a managerial task, but do the boys vote year after year to try and keep their SPL in office forever if necessary and will fight tooth and nail to keep their PL/APL team for their patrol?  Are the boys devastated when their SPL or PL ages out?

 

I don't care one Iota about adult expectations, but I look to my boys to see if there's any reaction to another boy's leadership ability.  To me that is the true test.

 

_{Now I admit do have some things I'ld like to do. #1 being able to have ALL ( emphasis) leaders, sit down, and stay out of the way of the Scouts, drinking coffee and playing card games.}

 

_{And for me I would say "#1 being ablew to have ALL SCOUTERS, sit down and stay out of the way of the scouts because THEY are the LEADERS!  Adults are there only because BSA requies 2 Deep, just enough for a good game of gin.  I'll put the pot on, you deal.}

[blw2]

@@Stosh asked some interesting questions:

 Do the boys really follow them, work with them, like them, want to be part of their patrol? Will turn to rather than some adult? etc.  For me, that is how I measure success in their POR.  Sure there is a part that measures for performance in a managerial task, but do the boys vote year after year to try and keep their SPL in office forever if necessary and will fight tooth and nail to keep their PL/APL team for their patrol?  Are the boys devastated when their SPL or PL ages out?

 

How can any of these things really gel and happen, if the patrols are regularly restructured to even out the "teams"?.... it seems that many troops will reassign patrols based on some calendar tick or another....

[Eagledad]

 

 

I don't care one Iota about adult expectations, but I look to my boys to see if there's any reaction to another boy's leadership ability.  To me that is the true test.

 

 

That's not an adult expectation?

 

What you really mean is that you aren't interested in our adult expectations, only your adult expectations. 

 

Barry

Edited January 7, 2016 by Eagledad

[Eagledad]

How can any of these things really gel and happen, if the patrols are regularly restructured to even out the "teams"?.... it seems that many troops will reassign patrols based on some calendar tick or another....

Many troops, really? It's a concept I never heard of much except on forums. Oh a troop might be forced to restructure as a result of some unusual circumstances like doubling troop size overnight, but not on a regular basis that you suggest. Is this a problem in your area?

 

Barry

[Stosh]

That's not an adult expectation?

 

What you really mean is that you aren't interested in our adult expectations, only your adult expectations. 

 

Barry

 

Yep, that about sums it up.  The expectations I have for myself is to create as many opportunities for the boys to develop their leadreship style, mature in stature and become a contributing citizen in society.  I clear the field for them of as many self-indulgent, well-meaning and even overbearing adults whose expectation is to constantly seek to take those opportunities away from them.  The boys deserve a clear learning field void of adult management concepts, interfering "leadership" and other adult imposed forces that come to play in a lot of troops.  Train 'em, trust 'em, and let them lead by keeping the adults out of the way so they can." 

 

Yes, it's my expectation that the boys make up their own rules, plan their own activities, sink and/or swim on their own time tables.  It's my responsibility to make sure they have the resources and opportunities to do so.

 

I'm looking at summer camp this summer.  5-6 boys and the PL is last year's Webelos cross-over who has just gotten his TF rank.  There is one other older boy, (Aspergers) who simply rides along and enjoys himself, and 4-5 (or more... up to 15 more!) THIS YEAR's Webelos cross-overs.

 

Yeah, there are those that think mixed age patrols are the only way to go.  I don't get that opportunity, and there are a lot of others out there that are starting or rebuilding that are in the same boat, cut them some slack.  Not everyone on this forum is taking over an already established troop. They have a tougher row to hoe than those that inherit a huge troop of experienced scouts.  Maybe they weren't as lucky as some, but with the bigger challenge comes the bigger reward.  Creating something out of nothing ranks higher in my ledger book than simply keeping the ball rolling.

 

And by the way, if we end up with 20 new Webelos boys crossing over this spring, I have faith that my one TF scout is going to be able to do it.  He has already proven to me he's up to the challenge, he's from a broken home and attends school 45 miles away yet is there pretty much every meeting and every outing.   It was he and I that stood out in the cold ringing bells for the Salvation Army for two hours chatting about future expectations....   Best Christmas present ever.

[Stosh]

@@Stosh asked some interesting questions:

 Do the boys really follow them, work with them, like them, want to be part of their patrol? Will turn to rather than some adult? etc.  For me, that is how I measure success in their POR.  Sure there is a part that measures for performance in a managerial task, but do the boys vote year after year to try and keep their SPL in office forever if necessary and will fight tooth and nail to keep their PL/APL team for their patrol?  Are the boys devastated when their SPL or PL ages out?

 

How can any of these things really gel and happen, if the patrols are regularly restructured to even out the "teams"?.... it seems that many troops will reassign patrols based on some calendar tick or another....

 

I think you answer your own question.  "It seems that many troops will reassign patrols based on some calendar tick or another..."  Who made up that rule?  Adults?  PLC? ??? Just another example of adult run troops that give lip service to the boy-led, patrol-method option.  In my entire tenure as SM in two different troops, there has never been an election except for OA membership.  The boys come up with their leadership.  How they do that is up to them.  The PL can be a volunteer, elected, agreed on by consensus or draws the short straw.  I don't care how they do it.  It just gets done and they know who it is they want to follow and they get a say so in it.  I have never had an SPL popularity contest either.  The SPL is either something the PL's take turns at because the event mandates it or if the troop is small like I have now, it defaults to the only PL to do double duty. 

 

Stay out of it.  Let the boys figure out who's in what patrol and whose going to lead it.  I've never interfered and the boys always seem to be very happy with their selections.  If they aren't they can correct it at any time, and yet on occasion that has happened.

[Eagledad]

Yep, that about sums it up.  The expectations I have for myself is to create as many opportunities for the boys to develop their leadreship style, mature in stature and become a contributing citizen in society. 

 

You just spoke for 90 percent of adult leaders. 

 

I clear the field for them of as many self-indulgent, well-meaning and even overbearing adults whose expectation is to constantly seek to take those opportunities away from them.

 

And you are the most humble of all. Take no prisoners, right?

 

Some people teach, some only rant.

 

Barry

[blw2]

Many troops, really? It's a concept I never heard of much except on forums. Oh a troop might be forced to restructure as a result of some unusual circumstances like doubling troop size overnight, but not on a regular basis that you suggest. Is this a problem in your area?

 

Barry

well, maybe not the best use of words.... but I did say "seems"....

and yes, it IS a problem.  The two troops I'm most familiar with do it.

 

I think you answer your own question.  "It seems that many troops will reassign patrols based on some calendar tick or another..."  Who made up that rule?  Adults?  PLC? ??? Just another example of adult run troops that give lip service to the boy-led, patrol-method option.  In my entire tenure as SM in two different troops, there has never been an election except for OA membership.  The boys come up with their leadership.  How they do that is up to them.  The PL can be a volunteer, elected, agreed on by consensus or draws the short straw.  I don't care how they do it.  It just gets done and they know who it is they want to follow and they get a say so in it.  I have never had an SPL popularity contest either.  The SPL is either something the PL's take turns at because the event mandates it or if the troop is small like I have now, it defaults to the only PL to do double duty. 

 

Stay out of it.  Let the boys figure out who's in what patrol and whose going to lead it.  I've never interfered and the boys always seem to be very happy with their selections.  If they aren't they can correct it at any time, and yet on occasion that has happened.

 

Yep, i did answer my own question.... I knew that 

 

and Stosh, you bring up an interesting side..... A while back I was discussing troop structure, patrols, and all of this stuff with a friend of mine who's a new scouter in my CO's troop, getting a feel for the troop that my son eventually chose to join.  They had recently done their annual patrol shuffle (not sure it's annual, but something like that).  

I forget exactly how the discussion flowed, but when I challenged him on this concept and the possibility that this might be sort of an adult interference issue (I tried to do that nicely, see how I used possibility and might there to soften it up  ), he was very fast to point out that it was/is completely the boys' decision and went on to describe a PLC meeting and how great it all was.  I dropped it and didn't point out that it Might Possibly be that the boys are only doing it the way it has always been done before since it's all they really know and they probably think this is the way it's supposed to be.  

This troop is admittedly only a couple years out of a firm adult led style so I strongly suspect that this is the case.

[Stosh]

well, maybe not the best use of words.... but I did say "seems"....

and yes, it IS a problem.  The two troops I'm most familiar with do it.

 

 

Yep, i did answer my own question.... I knew that 

 

and Stosh, you bring up an interesting side..... A while back I was discussing troop structure, patrols, and all of this stuff with a friend of mine who's a new scouter in my CO's troop, getting a feel for the troop that my son eventually chose to join.  They had recently done their annual patrol shuffle (not sure it's annual, but something like that).  

I forget exactly how the discussion flowed, but when I challenged him on this concept and the possibility that this might be sort of an adult interference issue (I tried to do that nicely, see how I used possibility and might there to soften it up  ), he was very fast to point out that it was/is completely the boys' decision and went on to describe a PLC meeting and how great it all was.  I dropped it and didn't point out that it Might Possibly be that the boys are only doing it the way it has always been done before since it's all they really know and they probably think this is the way it's supposed to be.  

This troop is admittedly only a couple years out of a firm adult led style so I strongly suspect that this is the case.

 

There are those out there that are "comfortable" in having a tradition to rely on.  There are those out there that struggle and grope around because of a lack of training, goals, vision, tradition or whatever there may be out there to grab on to.  There are those that always seek to improve and develop beyond the "been there, done that" comfort zone.  Some say it will work because it has in the past.  Others will say it won't work because it's old fashioned.  And the list goes on and on.

 

Every time one new boy comes into a troop or an older boy quits or ages out, the "personality" of the troop changes.  It happens with the adult corps, it happens on the patrol level, it happens on the youth leadership level, and even to a lesser extent on the troop level, depending on the size of the troop.

 

So, we all know that no two troops are the same and what works for one will not work for another.  So the traditional, one-size-fits-all, will make room for those that will fit the mold for that troop.  But other troops who either have no traditions (new troops or reorganizing troops) will be a bit more flexible for a while until they lock into the way we've always done it.

 

But a boy led, patrol method troop will survive more comfortably because the size that fits is one that is constantly custom made for the ever changing nature of the patrol's small group dynamics.  The 8 boys decide on a new PL, the dynamics change.  A beloved PL ages out, the dynamics change.  They have lost 4 boys to aging out, take on 4 new ones, the dynamics change.  To take a snapshop of the most excellent troop ever created today will mean that by the end of next week, things will be different.  Nothing stands still.

 

How the unit is structured, right down to the PL/APL leadership team, will determine it's success in the long run.  Those that can't change will basically limp along for a while, then spiral down to mediocracy eventually to merger or closure.  And what is ironic, someone else will come along and within a few years a new troop will pop up in it's place.  How can that be possible?  Had the old troop been flexible, maybe they would still be around.

 

People fear change, but with every new Webelos group crossing over, change is mandatory.  Every year that passes, change is mandatory.  To define a destination when the journey is never-ending means they will stop but life will go on.

 

So, who's to make the decision as to what is necessary for today?  I would venture the idea that the boys know what's best for them, not some historical adult dictated or even out-of-date PLC mandate from yesterday.  You 8 boys, figure out what and who you want to be and let me know.  Will their vision as Webelos be the same as when they are 16 and making plans for Philmont and/or Sea Base?  I think not. 

 

Adults are not there to mentor, coach, direct, lead, cajole, mandate or give the vision to the boys.  We are there to help them with THEIR vision.  After all, it's supposed to be their adventure, not ours as adults.

[blw2]

I see get what you are saying Stosh

and on a micro level I agree

Maybe you're right, but I'm not so sure on the macro level

Something I've mentioned here a few times, but I'm struggling to say it right....

is the need for One Program

 

sure, personalities change and different folks learn and work in different ways.  Absolutly right... and it is never static and always changing in that regard

but on a bigger level

I feel like Scouting has one method, and that seems to be the patrol method.  Something I've been trying to say for a while, I think Clarke Green said it well in his recent podcast, about "One Aim, One Method"

 

Anyway, After having read Aids to Scoutmastership, and studying this a while now through various books and other resources, it seems that it's really rather simple.

• Everything happens on the patrol level
• a patrol is made up of a small group of friends....6-8 boys (or kids everywhere else)
• the patrol is led by a scout... boy led
• the patrol gives each boy the stage to take on responsibility and practice leadership and teamwork
• adults are kind of a coach, or "safety valve" but not leaders
• patrols hang with other patrols as a troop, to share resources
• a troop is ideally 4 patrols or less.
• but everything happens on the patrol level
• it uses primarily the outdoors and nature as a setting for learning and building character.... the aim of this whole game

It just seems like everything else is just stuff added in under the name of improvement but only complicates things, and distracts from the aim and method.  Makes things worse in the end for the individual boy.  reduces what he can ultimately get out of scouting.

 

I might have missed a bullet point or two, I wrote this off the cuff, but that's the general idea of what I'm getting at.

and remember, I'm thinking of this as a macro level thing..... not that every unit on the 3rd Saturday of March should do a particular thing... just that there really seems to be one best overall method.

[Eagle94-A1]

Growing up, every 6 months we had the opportunity to switch patrol and elect new PLs. It was the Scout's choice. Exception to that was the following:

 

1) When we needed a third patrol and I was appointed PL. This was when we were trying the NSP thing before it become BSA policy. Didn't work and eventually two guys from other patrols migrated over and we became the 3rd mixed aged patrol

 

2)When someone got elected into the Leadership Corps. Again the LC members voted on who would join them.

 

Now SPL would assign Webelos who visited to a patrol to work with for the meeting and the camp out. Usually when they joined the troop they went to that patrol. I can't recall anyone wanting to join a different patrol, but my brain has been frozen, so my memory may be wrong.

[Stosh]

I see get what you are saying Stosh

and on a micro level I agree

Maybe you're right, but I'm not so sure on the macro level

 

I'm a SM, the micro level is where I operate, it does have an effect on the rest of the program.

 

Something I've mentioned here a few times, but I'm struggling to say it right....

is the need for One Program

 

sure, personalities change and different folks learn and work in different ways.  Absolutly right... and it is never static and always changing in that regard

but on a bigger level

I feel like Scouting has one method, and that seems to be the patrol method.  Something I've been trying to say for a while, I think Clarke Green said it well in his recent podcast, about "One Aim, One Method"

 

Anyway, After having read Aids to Scoutmastership, and studying this a while now through various books and other resources, it seems that it's really rather simple.

• Everything happens on the patrol level
• a patrol is made up of a small group of friends....6-8 boys (or kids everywhere else)
• the patrol is led by a scout... boy led
• the patrol gives each boy the stage to take on responsibility and practice leadership and teamwork
• adults are kind of a coach, or "safety valve" but not leaders
• patrols hang with other patrols as a troop, to share resources
• a troop is ideally 4 patrols or less.
• but everything happens on the patrol level
• it uses primarily the outdoors and nature as a setting for learning and building character.... the aim of this whole game

This is the micro level emphasis!  If National were to quit doing lip service to this and start working it as it's supposed to be, thing would be better.   If the foundation isn't solid the rest will be shaky.

 

It just seems like everything else is just stuff added in under the name of improvement but only complicates things, and distracts from the aim and method.  Makes things worse in the end for the individual boy.  reduces what he can ultimately get out of scouting.

 

If one is to add fluff it should be valuable fluff, not just gitter.

 

I might have missed a bullet point or two, I wrote this off the cuff, but that's the general idea of what I'm getting at.

and remember, I'm thinking of this as a macro level thing..... not that every unit on the 3rd Saturday of March should do a particular thing... just that there really seems to be one best overall method.

 

 

Growing up, every 6 months we had the opportunity to switch patrol and elect new PLs. It was the Scout's choice. Exception to that was the following: 1) When we needed a third patrol and I was appointed PL. This was when we were trying the NSP thing before it become BSA policy. Didn't work and eventually two guys from other patrols migrated over and we became the 3rd mixed aged patrol

 

Sounds like you got setup to fail.  Appointed?  The NSP should have had the option to pick anyone in the troop they wanted as a PL, the SPL should have come up with a qualified TG and just maybe it would have worked.  I wouldn't rely on this haphazard approach to the NSP as an indicator of how it should work.  If a couple of other boys "migrated" over, why wasn't that done at the beginning?  Who made what rules on how that should all work?  I'm thinking it wasn't the boys of the NSP.

 

2)When someone got elected into the Leadership Corps. Again the LC members voted on who would join them.

 

That's strange, I though the LC was made up of POR boys with troop level responsibility.  What it a popularity clique? and the LC voted in their members or were they elected by the troop?  I always through the SPL picked those positions. 

 

Now SPL would assign Webelos who visited to a patrol to work with for the meeting and the camp out.

 

Most Webelos might think it great to go with the patrol they are most familiar with.  If THEY got to pick, and the patrol said it was great, that will go a long way to cementl the new relationship.

 

Usually when they joined the troop they went to that patrol. I can't recall anyone wanting to join a different patrol, but my brain has been frozen, so my memory may be wrong.

As I have said, let the boys pick their own patrols.  Sometimes the boys decided to stay together, sometimes patrols who were < 6 members would invite new boys into their group, etc. but whatever happened, it was because it was how the boys made their choice of patrol membership and leadership.

 

I can't really speak as to how all the dynamics in my troops work because, I get told after all is said and done what the structure is.  Then I only hear about the changes.  Sometimes I find out why the change came about, but not always.