Changing a Troop's Culture, Balancing Boy-led versus Adult-led

[Eagledad]

True and one hand... I know of nothing that specifically defines same age patrols.... but that also reminds me that I know of nothing that they said or wrote that says you can't have it that way.

 

I know for a fact that there were a few same age patrols based troops in the old traditional days because the circumstances were such that was the design they chose. Troops fit the character of the SM and some adults are same age patrols kind of people. But it certainly wasn't the norm and it was a tough fit in the mixed aged BSA program at the time.

 

I'm not thinking they should be "same aged" at all either.  That's far too rigid.  It can most certainly be mixed age.  I'm just thinking about how natural groups of friends form in boys and kids in general.

 

It is my experience over a bunch of years that natural groups tend to come together more because of interest than age. I think you are pushing the natural groups thing too hard. Naturally young boys look up to older boys and older boys naturally look at younger boys as big brothers. Just how long does it take someone to make new friends? And, trust me that we had scouts in every Webelos den who crossed over that couldn't wait to get away from some of their den mates. Give interest a balance with age.

 

Our troop builds adventure patrols for each High Adventure trek. Every scout is encouraged to join the trek if they physically and mentally qualify for the activity. So most of our treks are mixed age. But I remember once when a new scout was the leader of a bicycling trek because he was an accomplished bike racer by the age ten. The 14 and 15 year olds not only accepted him, they wanted him for his experience. His interest. 

 

Think of things that happen naturally, such as sand lot pickup ball games.  There may be some age mixing, and naturally the older boys might be more capable than the younger ones.  Perhaps the older kids would be helping the other kids in some way.  they might be helping to teach.... or they might be helping by inspiring the younger ones in the challenge to keep up.

 

You just described my youth experience. Many of my friends where two and three years older and younger than me.

 

But we are way off track here. What you haven't yet learned and experienced is boy growth. Growth in character, maturity of making decisions and learning to be humble. These and many of traits and skills are the focus of what makes scouting so great. Adults have the choice of growth coming from the the scouts experience, or the adults. My experiences and observations of working with all types of patrols have proven to me that young scouts grow fastest when they have older roll models acting in front of them. Older scouts grow the most when they have younger brothers to be responsible for and show the way. 

 

The BSA tried to fix that part of scouting when they introduced same age patrols with the Troop Guide. But it is not the same thing because that the average human before puberty learns most (90 percent or more) of his behavior and choices by "Watching" others. Typically by watching those they respect, but sometimes it by watching those of which they don't respect like a bully. Your program is building clones of the roll models the young scouts observe. So when you measure the program quality by how the young scouts learn, you can quickly see how well they grow in same age patrols compared to mixed age patrols. 

 

Growth is what we are talking about in this discussion.

 

and then think about yourself as a kid.  When you were 16 or 17, did you really enjoy spending a huge amount of time with 10 and 11 year old boys?

 

This is a myth perpetuated by adults who don't have the experience to see it work. My first three Patrol Leaders all had their drivers license. 16 and 17 year olds are young adults, why would you as an adult want to work with 10 and 11 years but not the 16 and 17 year old adults? Ignoring their other interest, school and schedule, yes they may struggle to give the time. But males after puberty have a "natural desire to guide, protect, and mentor. We just have to remove the barriers in the program to give them the room and desire. One BIG barrier is adults telling scouts what they should and shouldn't want to do.  

 

Now what sounds more fun and motivating for a Scout, hang with his true friends and peers, or get split from those guys and hang all weekend with a mixed group of acquaintances?

 

This very myth is the cause of troops creating new Venture Crews that fail within three years. What makes you think that an 11 year old and 17 year old can't be friends. You are focused on what YOU think they want to do, not what THEY may want to do. Remember this, if the adults fail at the older scout program, what makes them think they can succeed with the Venture Crew. The older scouts are the heart of the troop.

 

I wrote the other day that the most important fact to know about building a successful younger boy program is to build a successful older scout program. And remember, you priorities aren't scouting activities, that is the scouts responsiblities. Your priorities are scout growth. Growth at all ages. Continued growth until the scout leaves the troop. It seems easy for new adult leaders to work with growth because they simply have the scouts learn scout skills. But what about after that? And truth is scout skills don't teach character, they only teach the boy the skills to survive in the outdoors. Growth comes from making decisions and being humble enough to change when the decision was wrong. So how while you challenge the older scouts so they can make decisions that teach them who they are and how to change? That is the reason that troops who divide off the older scout become boring dying troops. Our toughest challenge as adults is being creative enough to continually challenge each scout to grow at whatever age and experience he is at the moment. You do that and you wont have to worry about older scouts relationships with younger scouts. They will take care of that naturally from habits developed by living the oath and law. Remove the barriers of what you think boys want or need and have an open mind.

 

Growth in the Law and Oath is you main priority and it is challenging enough to provide that in a troop without all this other stuff.

 

Focus on older scout growth and younger scout will be taken care of.

 

 

"The Patrol System is the one essential feature in which Scout training differs from that of all other organisations, and where the System is properly applied, it is absolutely bound to bring success. It cannot help itself!"

 

Then there is your passion. It is what makes you different and better than most adults. Usually when I meet someone like you, I turn them to Green Bar Bill, Powell and a few others because they have the soul of the program. You are already there. I have found through the years that typcially the most successful Scoutmasters are experts of the founders. 

 

After everything I've said, I'm not trying to defend one style or another so much as I am trying to help you understand the real priorities boy growth. I am not a fan of NSPs because they slow down growth and force adults to get involved. But there are times when the NSP is the best choice depending on the circumstances. What you need to learn is what circumstances work best for what method. Not just in patrols, but the many parts of the troop program like camping, cooking, tenting, leading, following and on and on. There is always a better way for a scout to grow. You just have to figure out if it works for the scout and fits in the HUGE boundaries of the program. For example on this subject, would it be better for a troop with only two new scouts to put them in a NSP, or maybe try something different? What's the best way for the fastest growth? Next year the troop of two patrols get 25 new scouts, now what? I've been there and done that. You have to get creative.

 

Honestly I look forward to watching you grow in the program and the insights you will gain from the experience. I love scouting that much that I enjoy watching leaders with passion. I remember well that warm feeling in my heart as I did this scouting stuff. It seemed like I could never get enough and I just kept going. It was my wife that had to remind me that I was also a father and husband. Ya, there is that.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

[blw2]

Thanks @@Eagledad.  I appreciate your well thought response...but I think you are still missing part of the gist of what I'm getting at.... in that it seems you are equating my thoughts to support of a new scout patrol.  I'm not trying to encourage that at all.

 

You asked "What makes you think that an 11 year old and 17 year old can't be friends."  I don't think that at all.  I'm just saying that it's not as likely.  A good scout, being a boy of Good Character, will almost certainly be friendly with ALL scouts regardless of age or interest.  Even down to the Tiger Cubs.... but they aren't going to be best buds with them either.  But hey, if a 17 year old life scout is best buds with a 10 year old WEBELOS cross over.... great, they should work to be in the same patrol!

 

Actually, I am coming to form the opinion that any forcing of patrols is not good.  I agree with you that forcing a new scout patrol isn't good, just as I am thinking that it's not good to force a mixed age group.  I'm also thinking that it's probably not the best idea to force reforming of patrols based on some date on the calendar either.

 

I'm thinking that many times we as scouters might perhaps be encouraged by the fact that when we ask the scouts, they might propose mixed age as a solution to a failing attempt at NSP, for example, as if it's their idea.  That very well may be the better option.  But it seems also possible that in some of these cases they are limited by what has been modeled for them.  If that's the only way they have seen it done, they might not consider other twists.

 

As scouters, our job is to focus on the individual.  To draw out each boy as an individual to find the good in him and then to help draw that good while excluding the bad.  As you said, "boy growth".  What I'll call building character.  and taht has nothing to do with how the patrols are formed by my estimation. It seems to me that even if we were to take it all the way to the extreme of patrols by age, that they could all still grow as scouts, with the older scouts helping the younger ones, etc...  

 

I can certainly believe that a NSP if left alone, would almost certainly flounder while the older patrols wouldn't benefit from the personal growth gained in mentoring.

 

What I'm getting at is totally a focus on letting the boys lead fully.

Trying to keep in mind that they won't continue in scouts if they aren't having fun, one of our first jobs is to ensure that they are allowed to have fun.  I'm saying that most boys will have the most fun with their friends, and acknowledging that you are correct that friends are usually made over shared interest before age.... BUT most of the time it does follow age splits to at least some degree.  Middle schoolers are much more likely to hang with middle schoolers and high schoolers with other high schoolers.  I'm pretty sure that's not a myth.  My son as a case in point - he's in 5th grade, his closest friends are three 5th graders, two 6th graders, and one 4th grader... but the 4th grader is exactly the same age with 1 or 2 weeks.  He and all of his friends play very well with the younger brothers and sisters that range from toddler to 2nd grade.  they play for hours together and have many similar interests but they will never really be close and prefered friends until nearly adulthood when fairly significant age differences tend to blend out of the equation.  

Hey, and look at that.  His little gang works out to fit exactly within the magic 6-8 count of boys!

 

 Since everything is happening at the patrol level, and patrols are sticking together at camp, I just can't imagine a scenario where a boy would prefer to camp the entire weekend when his closest friends are way over there 300 yards away in those other patrols camp.  You're absolutely right that boys can make new friends very quickly and easily, but that doesn't always happen either.  

 

My biggest point though is that I am not suggesting that the boys should, or that they would even want to remove that personal growth opportunity of interacting with others and the boost that older scouts give to younger scouts.....

just saying that they don't really need to force themselves out of the patrol groups where they are most likely to have fun.  

I'm trying to focus on what it takes for them to stick with scouting.

[blw2]

Eagledad, and everyone,

 I was thinking about something you wrote.  You said something about same age patrols and the troop guide position being created at the same time as a fix of some sort.  

I'm curious, when did these come about, and for what reason?

[Eagle94-A1]

Eagledad, and everyone,

 I was thinking about something you wrote.  You said something about same age patrols and the troop guide position being created at the same time as a fix of some sort.  

I'm curious, when did these come about, and for what reason?

 

The concept of the New Scout Patrol and Troop Guide position came out officially in August 1989 as part of the OPERATION FIRST CLASS Program. National did some research saying that Scouts who get First Class within a year tend to stay in Scouting longer, and looked at some things to use to retain membership. Hence Operation First Class. The New Scout patrol, Troop Guide, renaming the Leadership Corps the Venture crew, etc as well as doing away with time requirements between T-2-1 ranks were all party of that process.

 

My thoughts;

 

1) While the report does show a correlation between advancement and retention, it did not show, nor even address, an active program. In my expereince, a 'hiking and camping troop" will retain Scouts.

 

2) I'm willing to bet that the LDS units separation of their 11 year olds from the rest of the troop  not only heavily influenced the concept of NSPs, but may have skewed some of the advancement data. Seems as if LDS units have had a focus on advancement over program since the 11 years olds are limited to 3 camp outs/year.

 

In retrospect, I think the LDS units may be one reason why advancement may have been used as a measurement for retention instead of programming.

 

More later

Edited December 31, 2015 by Eagle94-A1

[Eagle94-A1]

OK I'm back

 

 

3) Since all the Varsity Teams I've seen have been LDS, yes I've heard on non-LDS teams but have not seen them, I think the reason for the switch from Leadership Corps to Venture crew, as well as the creation of the  high adventure activity pins for wear on the Varsity/Venture V Award, was created based upon LDS units using Varsity Teams.

[blw2]

What you wrote about the LDS speculation makes sense given the little I know about that program.  At the cub level at least they seem to be very much age segregated.

 

well, this has been an interesting thread for me.

 

This i think is the first I've heard of Leadership Corps so I'm not familiar with that.  Just guessing based on the name, Some of that might fit into my thought process relating to an older patrol taht helps the younger ones.

 

Regardless, I'm finding more and more value in looking at the structure and concepts from the early days of scouting.  Of course much of it is left to intuitive assumption, but from what I can tell a lot of it did fit very well into a very simple and logical model of what typical boys like, and what they need.  Like almost anything, it gets more and more complex over time all in the name of "making it better", all the while what really happens is that the principle of entropy is doing it's thing.....

[Eagledad]

Like almost anything, it gets more and more complex over time all in the name of "making it better", all the while what really happens is that the principle of entropy is doing it's thing.....

Which is why it is so very important to know where you are going; have a clear vision. As I said earlier, scout skills, camping, uniforms leadership and so on are not the main goals or visions. They are only the methods. That is the trap many adults get caught in and why they trend away from boy run. They simply don't know where they are going.

 

An easy way to keep the priorities strait is give the scouts the responsiblities of working the Eight Methods (Ideals, patrols, outdoors, leadership, personal growth, adult association, advancement, and uniform) and the adults focused on the responsibilities of the Three Aims (fitness, citizenship and character). Boy run is the actions of the scout achieving the vision by developing habits of making moral and ethical decisions. Methods are proactive actions to reach the passive traits of the Aims. You stay in check by keeping the adults out of the scouts responsibilties of the methods. All adult choices or reactions should be based on character, fitness and citizenship (descision making).

 

Easier said than done however. How does the SM stay in focus of the Aims when the scouts "chose" not to take responsibility of wearing the uniform? Or camping, or leadership? And for there to be growth, the scout has to make the concous effort to make the right decision. There is no growth if the authority tells the scout to do it differently. Man that's tough, which is why this scouting stuff and boy run isn't as simple as setting tents 100 yards apart.

 

AND, adults have to develop the skill of working the program at the maturity and skill of the scouts. Does anyone really think a 12 year old SPL will perform equally with the experienced 16 year old SPL? It takes practice, but adults have to adapt as the maturity of the scouts change and they have to work it in the context of the Aims or vision. Not the methods.

 

Sounds like you are getting it. Well done.

 

Barry

Edited December 31, 2015 by Eagledad

[Eagle94-A1]

BLW2,

 

The Leadership Corps was what the Venture crew (not Venturing Crew), now called a Venture patrol, was called back in my day. usually it was the older Scouts who had troop level positions: QM, Librarian, Instructor, etc.

 

Lots of different ways to work it, but here is how it worked in my troop. If I can find the Leadership Corps book I'll post some official stuff. ,

 

1. Had to be First Class or above, a PL for at least 6 months (most were a PL for year or longer), and be elected by existing members of the LC to be a member.

 

2. ASPL was the PL of the LC since he is responsible for supervising the troop appointed positions.

 

3. Everyone had a role to play, even if they didn't have a formal POR as being in the LC was a POR from 72-89.

 

4. We ran the interpatrol activities for the troop.

 

5. We would occasionally did our own activities. Best example would be the Vicksburg Military Park trails. Instead of the 14 mile road trip, we would do the 12 mile as the crow flies cross country orienteering trek, or if that was closed do the 14 and 7 mile road trips. Rest of the troop did the 14 miler.

[TAHAWK]

It's the "Patrol Method."   It is not the" Boy-Led Troop Method."

 

Boy leadership is one aspect of the Patrol Method.  

 

Boys primarily experiencing Scouting in a patrol setting is the biggest aspect of the Patrol Method.

 

It's harder to start in the middle.  How about starting where BP and Bill started, with patrols? (If you think it might help, tell them they are in teams and the PL is the team captain.  Does the Little League Coach pitch in a game if his pitchers get wild?)

 

If you have strong patrols, its easy to have decent troop-level goings on.  If you have weak patrols, the SPL's job is really tough.  (An SPL in such a situation, unless strongly mentored and coached, will try to become a super PL and lead the patrols instead of working through the PLs.   Just as adults commonly directly lead in this declining age.)

 

If you have no time for patrols functioning separately, you have no time for Boy Scouting.  Not that the result may be OK in some ways, it just is not Boy Scouting. (Who says that [without enforcing it]?  The B.S.A.)

Edited December 31, 2015 by TAHAWK

[blw2]

It's the "Patrol Method."   It is not the" Boy-Led Troop Method."

 

Boy leadership is one aspect of the Patrol Method.  

 

Boys primarily experiencing Scouting in a patrol setting is the biggest aspect of the Patrol Method.

 

It's harder to start in the middle.  How about starting where BP and Bill started, with patrols? (If you think it might help, tell them they are in teams and the PL is the team captain.  Does the Little League Coach pitch in a game if his pitchers get wild?)

 

If you have strong patrols, its easy to have decent troop-level goings on.  If you have weak patrols, the SPL's job is really tough.  (An SPL in such a situation, unless strongly mentored and coached, will try to become a super PL and lead the patrols instead of working through the PLs.   Just as adults commonly directly lead in this declining age.)

 

If you have no time for patrols functioning separately, you have no time for Boy Scouting.  Not that the result may be OK in some ways, it just is not Boy Scouting. (Who says that [without enforcing it]?  The B.S.A.)

well said tahawk!

 

I especially like the little league coach/pitcher analogy....

 

and your last sentence nails something I came around to realize lately.... I got it from something I read in BPs book... I figured out that almost no troop is going to be perfect, BUT as long as the scouter "does no harm", any boy will get something good out of scouting....at least its something.... might not be all that it could potentially be, but something good.

[qwazse]

I can't recall precisely, but the Leadership Corps in our troop was SPL and JASMs who went to Junior Leader Training.

[MattR]

The OT is about change. What I find is there is a huge amount of momentum that needs to change, both scout and adult. Scouts don't seem to learn from what adults say nearly as much as they learn from watching the older scouts. So, with older scouts that don't lead there's a bad cycle to break.

 

I think I've finally broken that cycle in my troop. I let the patrols break up any way they wanted and it came out to be scouts 14 and older or 13 and younger. I knew that would happen and I used it as a great way to get the older scouts away from the younger. The younger scouts are now figuring it out on their own. After 18 months they don't want to follow the older scout model. i.e., the patrols are now 15 and younger or 16 and older. The younger patrols are slowly taking ownership.

 

In the meantime the older scouts went through their own change. At first is was rough as no amount of me talking could get them to do much of anything. I think what really lit a fire was when some of them said they'd like to spread out among the younger patrols and "show them how it's done." I very politely said they probably didn't need any help and besides, they had more going on anyway. Some of them took that to heart, really stepped up, and illustrate everything scouts can be. These scouts are the ones that have always been willing to help out. There are also those that have never helped much and still don't want to. They are struggling. They don't want to plan anything so they don't have much to do and a couple have left the troop. There are adults very unhappy with that. Then there are those older scouts on the fence. They'd like to help but they don't have a lot of confidence. The ones that are participating are watching and slowly getting pulled into trying to help out. It seems to be working.

 

The point is the maturity level  feeds on itself. It starts with a few scouts that just want to do it and the rest of the scouts see it and then are willing to try it. Just as important the adults are figuring out their roles as well.

[Eagle94-A1]

Update from the meeting this week.

 

SPL does need to work on communication and insuring instructors know in advance what they are doing and/or giving them a chance to practice. Also needs to make sure they have supplies

 

Instructor(s) needs to know the skills, practice before hand, and learn how to use their resources.

 

Adults need to learn to butt out of the process, especially if they do not know the skills.

 

 

What do I mean?

 

SPL talked to most of the folks instructing at the Christmas Party, but not everyone. Didn't follow through to remind them or contact those not at the party. Nor did he have all the equipment. I admit, I brought supplies "just in case." He needs to make sure to contact everyone and plan, plan, plan. Something I need to talk to him about.

 

Some of the instructors he did talk to, didn't practice ahead of time. So instead of helping out with the other skills, they were on the side practicing what they were suppose to teach. So instead of the older Scouts working one-on-one or two-on-one with the new Scouts, it was 1 person working with the new Scouts. AND since this was his first time teaching, it was challenging. Plus some of the Scouts who knew what was being taught, because they were not told to help their buddies, did the skill and waited.  

 

As for adults, we do need to butt out. Especially those who don't know the skill. We had 2 recently moved up CS leaders trying to teach knots using smart phone apps. I admit eventually jumping in after seeing the older scouts working on their stuff and not working with the younger ones, and the NSP folks getting frustrated. TG cannot do it all by himself. And those that know haven't learned to take initiative.

 

So what was so positive about the "organized chaos" and adult involvement?

 

1) This was the first time the youth did all the planning and organizing on their own? Yes, they received a copy of the Troop Planning Features from me, but the SPL appointed the instructors, was responsible for planning, etc. For me this is a step in the right direction.

 

2) For the most part, the adults realized that they are jumping in too much now. We were talking about the issue of the NSP, and several agree, including the possible new SM, that we need to move away from the NSP and go "old school" with mixed aged patrols so that no one Scout is responsible for working with all the new Scouts. I did have to tell the two new leaders that we need to wait until the next patrol elections to make changes instead of the adults jumping in and making the changes for the Scouts.  We need to let them figure it out.

[Eagledad]

Well these seems like huge steps forward. I'm laughing at the Iphone teaching tool. LOL

 

You made some fairly critical observations of the SPL, and in your words you appear to be expecting experienced performance from a first timer. The task appeared to me to be somewhat challenging and complicated. There is a lot of fruit growing from that tree. You seemed more concerned about the perception of the overall performance without acknowledging the individual growth. Next time this happens, ask the scout how he thinks he performed.The answer to that question has humbled me many times.

 

I think you are doing OK. Maybe a few little stumbles, but as long as the each step is going forward, you will get there.

 

Barry

[Eagle94-A1]

If it seems as if I'm critical of the SPL, I'm not. Far from it as I think he is doing great job for the first time.  He took initiative. He planned it. He worked his people. And like any first time leader, mistakes were made. And I am hoping everyone concerned, grows from it. Especially some of the adults.  I am hoping and praying that some of the adults will back off and let them Scouts make their mistakes and learn form them.

 

ADDED

 

DANG just reread what I wrote and you're right, the bulk seems negative. i was trying to give a summary of the meeting, what could be improved, and what went really well.  I do not like ending things on a negative note, and try to end reflections on a positive note.

 

Want to emphasize the following.

 

1) I think the youth made a giant step forward. I hope it continues.

 

2) I think some of the worse offenders as adults are slowly seeing the light.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Eagle94-A1