Another interesting article from Scoutmaster's Blog on FB; Belief structures

[skeptic]

Our friend who writes the Scoutmaster's Blog has weighed in on God and related issues within Scouting.  The comments on FB have included some serious antipathy towards his comments.  Certainly seems to approach the subject with intelligence and common sense I feel.  Take a look.

 

http://scoutmastercg.com/a-scouts-duty-to-god/

[DuctTape]

IMO the Oath does not need changing. However, there should not be some other declaration of any specific principles which narrowly define those principles. Keep the oath, lose the drp.

[qwazse]

FB? Antipathy? Say it ain't so!

[Rick_in_CA]

Our friend who writes the Scoutmaster's Blog has weighed in on God and related issues within Scouting.  The comments on FB have included some serious antipathy towards his comments.  Certainly seems to approach the subject with intelligence and common sense I feel.  Take a look.

 

http://scoutmastercg.com/a-scouts-duty-to-god/

A well thought-out post. I agree with your friend. I have long believed that the BSA should either modify or loose the DRP.

 

On of the big problems with the DRP that is missed by the post, is that new members are asked to subscribe too the DRP on the application, but are only shown an excerpt from it, not the whole thing. This bait and switch is unfair.

 

From the application:

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to these precepts from the Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of leadership.

Which is much more non-sectarian then the real DRP.

[NJCubScouter]

Rick is correct about the difference between the "official" DRP and what most actual Scouters see, which is what is in the adult leader application. None of the language about the "ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings" (which is what the blogger in question spends most of his time talking about) is on the application.

Edited September 9, 2015 by NJCubScouter

[Renax127]

Rick is correct about the difference between the "official" DRP and what most actual Scouters see, which is what is in the adult leader application. None of the language about the "ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings" (which is what the blogger in question spends most of his time talking about) is on the application.

Until this came I had never even seen the full DRP I assumed the one I signed was it

 

*edit I can't spell

Edited September 10, 2015 by Renax127

[John-in-KC]

My two cents, as a Lutheran Christian.

In the direct context of Scouting around the world

Scoutmasterblog is pole vaulting over mouse turds on male-ness of God.

 

Scoutmasterblog is pole vaulting over mouse turds on monotheism v polytheism.

 

That wipes away 3/4 of his article.

 

The remaining quarter is non-theism, and a-theism.  Sorry, I cannot go there.  Go back to the root, to the writings of B-P.  Now, imo, the DRP should be formed from writings of B-P.  That would end the disucssion.

There is room for Hindu, Buddhist, and even Shinto.  If there's room for that, the DRP covers a darn broad tent.

There is no room for non-theism or a-theism.

My thoughts amongst fellow friends and Scouters.

[Stosh]

From the wording of the alternative promise, it sounds like this gentleman would like to open up the religious definition to including the Pantheism of Scouting as an acceptable religion.  One must always be careful what string one is pulling lest they tip another issue into the picture.

 

On my honour, I promise that I will do my best
To uphold our Scout values, to do my duty to the Queen,
To help other people
And to keep the Scout Law.

 

This would be all well and good, but as we find on this forum the definition of upholding Scout values does indeed run contrary for some to their religious beliefs.  Then what does one do?  I really don't believe "our Scout values" is a worthwhile alternative to one's religious beliefs.  As a theist, I wouldn't accept this oath because it excludes religion from the oath.  For me upholding our Scout values and keeping the Scout Law are the same thing.

[Peregrinator]

From the wording of the alternative promise, it sounds like this gentleman would like to open up the religious definition to including the Pantheism of Scouting as an acceptable religion.  One must always be careful what string one is pulling lest they tip another issue into the picture.

 

On my honour, I promise that I will do my best

To uphold our Scout values, to do my duty to the Queen,

To help other people

And to keep the Scout Law.

 

This would be all well and good, but as we find on this forum the definition of upholding Scout values does indeed run contrary for some to their religious beliefs.  Then what does one do?  I really don't believe "our Scout values" is a worthwhile alternative to one's religious beliefs.  As a theist, I wouldn't accept this oath because it excludes religion from the oath.  For me upholding our Scout values and keeping the Scout Law are the same thing.

They should just stop at "uphold our Scout values" since duty to the Queen, helping other people, and keeping the Scout Law surely are part of those values.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

There is room for Hindu, Buddhist, and even Shinto.  If there's room for that, the DRP covers a darn broad tent.

 

There is no room for non-theism or a-theism.

 

If you exclude non-theists/atheists, you are excluding some Buddhists, at the very least.

 

The Scouting Association of the UK admits atheists.

[Eagledad]

Without theism, what are scouting's values? My religion guides the actions of friendly, courteous, and kind. I imagine most do.

 

Barry

[Cambridgeskip]

Without theism, what are scouting's values? My religion guides the actions of friendly, courteous, and kind. I imagine most do.

 

Barry

 

 

From the wording of the alternative promise, it sounds like this gentleman would like to open up the religious definition to including the Pantheism of Scouting as an acceptable religion.  One must always be careful what string one is pulling lest they tip another issue into the picture.

 

On my honour, I promise that I will do my best

To uphold our Scout values, to do my duty to the Queen,

To help other people

And to keep the Scout Law.

 

This would be all well and good, but as we find on this forum the definition of upholding Scout values does indeed run contrary for some to their religious beliefs.  Then what does one do?  I really don't believe "our Scout values" is a worthwhile alternative to one's religious beliefs.  As a theist, I wouldn't accept this oath because it excludes religion from the oath.  For me upholding our Scout values and keeping the Scout Law are the same thing.

 

The point of the alternative promise is that it is just that. An alternative. It is one of a series of slightly different versions to reflect different faiths and beliefs.

 

As to what the scout values are, to quote from the UK

 

As Scouts we are guided by these values:

      Integrity We act with integrity; we are honest, trustworthy and loyal.

Respect We have self-respect and respect for others.

Care We support others and take care of the world in which we live.

Belief We explore our faiths, beliefs and attitudes.

Cooperation We make a positive difference; we cooperate with others and make friends.

[gumbymaster]

Even Pope Francis has acknowledged that a person does not have to be religeous to still be a moral, upstanding citizen.

 

Conversely, we are all also aware of specific examples where those who are or preport to be religeous and definately not moral upstanding citizens (ranging from dishonest to demonic).

 

I do not claim to be a better representative of religeon's role in character development that BP, or even the majority of member of the forum; but I do allow for the thought that one could be an atheist and still a good moral representative of what the Scouting program aims to achieve.  Many members of the humanist movement would come to mind.

 

As for myself, I consider myself spiritual.  My philosphies would pass the exerpt on the membership application.  But I do not consider myself religeous (at least wise in alignment with most (western) organized religeons).  I would not pass a test using a strict interpretation of the full DRP, requiring a belief in a personified (male) deity that bestows blessings upon his believers. Would you consider that inspight of my 38+ years with the program, and the numerous youth I have helped to guide that I would need to disassociate myself?  That I am, by definition, incapable of being a moral ustanding citizen?  An I realize you don't know me, and maybe that's all the more to the point.

[Eagledad]

Even Pope Francis has acknowledged that a person does not have to be religeous to still be a moral, upstanding citizen.

 

How would he know? What is he measuring morality against? When an atheist says he is moral, what standards is he comparing himself against?

 

Barry

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

How would he know? What is he measuring morality against? When an atheist says he is moral, what standards is he comparing himself against?

 

 

Other humans.  Are you a sociopath?