Scoutmaster/Crew Advisor Selection

[SnarlyYow]

If the crew is chartered, there must be a CC, at least on paper. Right? (That would be a true for a troop and I assume a crew is no different in that regard.)As for the rest of it, I think the main issue is that the Advisor was not properly appointed, if that turns out to be the case.

I should have been more specific, I am the Committee Chair for both Troop and Crew. There is no second committee.

[NJCubScouter]

SY, if that is the case, the application should not have been submitted to council without your signature. Do you know whether it actually was submitted to council, and whether it was approved by council?

 

I ask whether it was actually submitted because I have seen a couple of situations (including one involving me) where a new leader signed and handed in an application to the CC or his/her designee and, unbeknownst to the applicant, the application sat in someone's briefcase for a couple of months, with the person Scouting happily along thinking they were registered.

[fred johnson]

In other news, I called out District Representative and as far as they're concerned, this person is female. So there's that.

 

In my opinion, it's not that simple at all.  Venturing requires a leader of each gender to be present on outings.  Well, is that the physical gender, the chosen gender or the opposite of the sexual attraction gender.  Just because someone is transsexual, that does not address which sex they are attracted too.  IMHO, I would find it EXTREMELY difficult if I had a daughter to be at all comforted that this person was the "female" chaperon.  As the father of sons, I am not really any relieved either.

 

IMHO, you are in a no-win position.  The two families with most of the leaders knew what they were doing and wanted to avoid any potential conflict.  

 

If it was me as committee chair, I'd strongly talk to my son about finding another troop ... if for no other reason than I'd be really upset with how this all occurred.  

 

Even if I was not committee chair and as someone who is working with people of many different orientations, I'd be strongly driven to pull my kids.  Young kids just don't need to the drama, confusion and complexities that many of these situations can introduce.  

Edited September 10, 2015 by fred johnson

[Stosh]

Welcome to the wonderful world of toop-crew merged politics.  This way when feelings get hurt two units get disrupted.

 

The crew has problems???? Who from the troop wants to join that program run by the same people?

 

The troop has problems????  Eventually it will have an impact on the crew.

 

Don't feel bad, this happens all the time and people never really seem to catch on that two programs run by the same people are going to have the same problems in both.  All this drama, paper work and politics just so the venture patrol can have gals involved.

 

Cut the bond between the two and let each group independently work on their own separate problems and programs.

[5yearscouter]

Identify if that person submitted an application filled out completely with attached ypt certificate and the disclosure agreement signed., and if so, where is that application? because as committee chair you are supposed to see each adult application and approve them for leadership.  If they already filled one out and it's been turned into council office, then ask for a copy of it.  Once you have the application in hand, go talk to the COR about the situation. If the COR is ok with the choice and approves the application and you don't have a BETTER choice, then sign the application yourself and go forward to make it work or to find a replacement that is a better fit ASAP..

 

As you wait to get that application in hand, do a membership inventory, check the my.scouting.org roster to see who is registered in each unit as youth and adults. 

And Visit a crew meeting and see who actually shows up and would be a likely person for crew advisor, as in, if nobody is showing up, the point of who is crew advisor isn't as important as is this a viable crew or not?

And if you show up and this person is there supporting the youth and doing all the right things, you'll know it isn't as bad as you think it is. 

[qwazse]

@@5yearscouter, I think part of the "hot mess" is -- as @@Stosh points out -- that the crew and troop meeting are one in the same. There's no crew meeting to visit. I suspect that there is no activity that one unit plans independently of the other. I also suspect that it's an assumption that any 14 y/o scout is enrolled in the crew. I also suspect that no male crew member has actually on his own filled out a second BSA youth application and acquired his parent's and the advisor's signature.

 

There are a lot of problems with this. The most important is leadership models. The troop would elect it's SPL+PLs (really with only 11 boys it could just be the PL(s) ... but let's spare us the digression); the crew, it's President and Vice-Presidents.

 

Most of you are familiar with the troop youth and troop committee working with the SM as the go-between. (If you'all are boy-led to the bone, the SM would give the SPL that job ... but that's a rare unit.)

 

Ideally, each youth in the crew would be planning their pet activity and the president would report that and any pressing needs to the crew committee (yes, the committee, not the advisor ... we advisors just coach the president on how to do this). This could include the president requesting more chaperons for any number of reasons -- including but not limited to the girls or their parents wanting an adult who spent adolescence as a female.

 

So you see, @@SnarlyYow, if you want to keep holding both positions and live up to how both programs are designed, you have to figure out how to very clearly switch hats. You have to make time for this committee of yours to listen to the crew president. You have to accept that the crew and the troop might go off on different activities some weekends and the multiple-registered boys might have to make a thoughtful decision about which one to go on. The PL might feel the troop needs a "boys-only" weekend or the president might need a "registered crew-members only" weekend, and you the advisor and the crew president have to be okay with that. Most importantly, you have to be cool with some of your committee being all about the boys and others being all about the co-eds ... and only a few free to tend to both.

[SnarlyYow]

Y'all have given me a lot to think about. As it stands, both Troop and Crew meet the same nights and do many activities at the same time. However, sometimes Troop does things by themselves and so does Crew, though rarely. Mostly, it operates as one group.

 

The other thing that is at issue is that Boy Scouts are Ventures but Ventures are not Boy Scouts. I've been thinking of putting a motion forward to make a clear delineation between the two. If we want to have Ventures and Scouts they shouldn't hold both titles. This had been at issue at the Youth level with the female Crew President "claiming" scouts when they are of age. She has a strong will and is uncontested in many instances.

 

But all this is besides the point. The Troop has not ever had a committee since its inception, with the Scoutmaster mostly running the whole show. I have called and assembled several adults to apply for positions on the committee which should have been done long, long ago.

 

Do you know whether it actually was submitted to council, and whether it was approved by council?

 

 

No, I don't believe I ever signed anything regarding this matter. The District Executive acknowledged to me on the phone that the Crew Advisor had been approved, though. I suddenly have a huge fear. At the most recent court of honor, right before the ceremonies, I was handed some paperwork that I was told was for scout promotions and such. I signed several pieces of paper at that moment. In retrospect, this was unwise. But this was right before the COH. Moments before, really. I signed, like, six things which I thought were just rank promotions and awards. It's got me biting my nails. But, again, I signed those documents before the COH where this person was announced to be the new CA.

 

I ask whether it was actually submitted because I have seen a couple of situations (including one involving me) where a new leader signed and handed in an application to the CC or his/her designee and, unbeknownst to the applicant, the application sat in someone's briefcase for a couple of months, with the person Scouting happily along thinking they were registered. 

 

 

I doubt this is the case. I've been Committee Chair since late April and the last CA had health problems last month which is what led to her promotion. I've since discovered his/her official position before to CA was Assistant Crew Advisor. That may add a wrinkle to things.

 

In my opinion, it's not that simple at all.  Venturing requires a leader of each gender to be present on outings.  Well, is that the physical gender, the chosen gender or the opposite of the sexual attraction gender.  Just because someone is transsexual, that does not address which sex they are attracted too.  IMHO, I would find it EXTREMELY difficult if I had a daughter to be at all comforted that this person was the "female" chaperon.  As the father of sons, I am not really any relieved either.

 

 

It might actually be easier than that. You take church. We have nursery attendants and those attendants are required to be unrelated. Transgender things aside, I think it's important for leaders to be of different families.

 

Even if I was not committee chair and as someone who is working with people of many different orientations, I'd be strongly driven to pull my kids.  Young kids just don't need to the drama, confusion and complexities that many of these situations can introduce.

 

 

I've pulled my son from this troop once before and he hated it. This troop goes on trips and such, the other troop in town doesn't. I think by just playing by the rules, getting more adults involved, we can make the troop work. Considering the drama is all coming from one place, if we can break it up I think it'll be okay.

 

Identify if that person submitted an application filled out completely with attached ypt certificate and the disclosure agreement signed., and if so, where is that application? because as committee chair you are supposed to see each adult application and approve them for leadership.

 

 

I've been trying to figure this out through some sleuthing. I worry about being too blatant about what's going. Appartently the Scoutmaster has all of our paperwork. I could go to the district office and find the paperwork myself, I suppose. Or call the DE. I need to get the paperwork in a place where it's accessible to those of us in the troop.

 

So you see, @SnarlyYow, if you want to keep holding both positions and live up to how both programs are designed, you have to figure out how to very clearly switch hats.

 

 

I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "Switch Hats?" I only have a single position, Committee Chair. Yes, I s'pose it's for both Troop and Crew, but it is one position. Please explain.

[Stosh]

 

I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "Switch Hats?" I only have a single position, Committee Chair. Yes, I s'pose it's for both Troop and Crew, but it is one position. Please explain.

 

I've been in this position for many years and it's quite simple.  When  one is wearing the Scout hat all issues related to Boy Scouts apply and how one interacts with the scouts revolve around that program.  There is the boy-led thing that needs to be honored and addressed constantly and then there's the patrol-method with clear distinctions as to the different patrols and their individual and independent relationships.  The decisions made by the committee must be focused appropriately at this time along these lines and what is in the best interest of those boys registered either singular or dual with the troop and crew.

 

Now one needs to take off the Scout hat and put on the Crew hat.  The structure is far different.  There is the president and his/her officers and they do not use the patrol-method although they are youth run.  Their focus is singularly on high adventure and activities with a few maybe looking for Venturing awards, but nothing like the advancement structure of Boy Scouts.  Their activities are tend to be more expensive and more challenging than what the troop members as a whole can handle and thus must not dumb themselves down to a young scout level so they can participate as if it was a troop activity.

 

Seriously the two different roles expected of the CC and Committee members is farther apart than what most assume.  I NEVER wore a Venturing uniform at a Venture Crew activity but I ALWAYS wear a Boy Scout uniform at a Troop activity.  Those are my cues to switch hats for the program I'm supposed to be involved with.  Because of this clear cut distinction the work I did for either program did not overlapped in any way with the work I did for the other.  

 

Your set up does not have that distinction and thus opens itself up to naturally occurring conflict that will result in the confusion of who's wearing what hat at what time?  I have always gone with the Venture Patrol emphasis where I could remain within the Boy Scout program and still do many of the same things that a Venturing Crew would do but the Patrol-Method would apply and the activities would fall under the guidance of the SM and not a CA.  Yes, the women would not be involved, but the boys would continue with their advancement and high adventure would be their secondary priority.  In a crew High Adventure and awards would have those priorities reversed.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Stosh

[NJCubScouter]

I only have a single position, Committee Chair. Yes, I s'pose it's for both Troop and Crew, but it is one position.

If there are two chartered units, there are two CC positions. They can be held by the same person, but they are separate positions. The fact that they are being treated as one does not change that. I believe you said earlier that you are recruiting separate members for one of the committees so the committee membership will no longer be identical. That sounds like a good idea.

[qwazse]

We're not trying to distract or minimize your initial concern, which basically involves folks being mavericks ... a behavior that this organization rewards at times and condemns at others. Just be careful that you don't get worked up about it and the consequent effect on membership.

Y'all have given me a lot to think about. As it stands, both Troop and Crew meet the same nights and do many activities at the same time. However, sometimes Troop does things by themselves and so does Crew, though rarely. Mostly, it operates as one group. ...

The question you'll need to ask (very gently so as not to bruise egos, BTW): was that a decision for the convenience of the adults, or do the kids like each other so much that they stick together so tightly?

... The other thing that is at issue is that Boy Scouts are Ventures but Ventures are not Boy Scouts. I've been thinking of putting a motion forward to make a clear delineation between the two. If we want to have Ventures and Scouts they shouldn't hold both titles. This had been at issue at the Youth level with the female Crew President "claiming" scouts when they are of age. She has a strong will and is uncontested in many instances.

Little confused here. Middle school Boy Scouts under age 14 can not be venturers. Do you have any of those?
I wouldn't worry about boys holding both titles. They could just as well join some other crew not related to your CO, or they could be in a youth group or gaming league, as well as boy scouts. Giving 14+ year olds "either or" ultimatums just backfires (says the guy whose band director said either attend band camp and retain my position or national jamboree and do a different activity for senior year). I train my venturers to "switch off" the venturer and "switch on" the boy (or girl) scout as needed.
 
This is where you as venturing CC have a much different role than troop CC. If your vision is for a consolidated committee for both units, you need to set aside time when your committee is listening to the crew president. (Could be during the troop committee meeting or a different time.) The discussion would be along the lines of "How's it going ... What's the plan ... How can we help?" Over time this builds into a relationship than ask the tough questions like how to involve boys crew while helping them fulfill troop responsibilities.
 
 
All the other stuff ... it starts with getting on the same page as your COR as to who signed what. Frankly if your CO is happy with the both of you, run with it. The new advisor does not seem like a stranger to the girls. So it seems like you should start having an honest conversation with her (estwhile him) and say you're not so sure about how to work this in a way that maintains parents' -- especially conservative ones -- trust.

 

The chuch nursery policy? Completely irrelevant. The teen group policy -- if there is one -- is what you might want to regard. But either way, that's disingenuous. Scouters are best served when they call a spade a spade ... especially when they feel slighted.

[SnarlyYow]

Our Committee Meeting went better than expected. I avoided the one on one discussions prior to the meeting which I felt could lead to disaster. Instead I sprung it on everyone which had its own problems but I felt the fallout couldn't be as bad. I imagined the worst and got the best possible response I could have hoped for. 

[qwazse]

Things usually aren't as bad as we make them out to be in our heads.

 

Keep us posted as you work out the operations in your units.

[5yearscouter]

So did you log into my.scouting.org and look at the membership roster for each unit?

Are they a venture crew a separate unit or does the troop maybe only have a venture patrol?

Cause I've run into units who don't know what they have cause nobody has looked at the paperwork.

I mean if you don't have an actual separate committee for the venture crew is it really registered as a crew? 

[00Eagle]

So did you log into my.scouting.org and look at the membership roster for each unit?

Are they a venture crew a separate unit or does the troop maybe only have a venture patrol?

Cause I've run into units who don't know what they have cause nobody has looked at the paperwork.

I mean if you don't have an actual separate committee for the venture crew is it really registered as a crew? 

It could still be a crew, just that the Committee Chair (CC), Charter Org Rep (CR), and committee members (MC) on both rosters are the same people.  You would indeed need to compare the unit rosters to be sure.  You should be able to request a copy of the rosters from the district/council.  In fact any council-level volunteer should be able to pull your training roster from myscouting.  It only lists those members who have reported training but with mandatory YPT, every adult should appear along with occasional scouts and venturers that have taken NYLT and other courses for camp staff.  The only hard part is decoding the position codes (M = youth member, NL= crew advisor, NA = associate advisor, etc.)

 

In a way I'm sort of glad that the name "venture patrol" has been removed from the troop program because of the confusion between the in-troop program and venturing crews.  The names were too similar and caused confusion for the new and inexperienced.  Unfortunately, calling them "older scout patrols" isn't the answer either.

[SnarlyYow]

Ugh, my endeavor to increase involvement reveals further problems. How do you handle nasty politics between adults? It seems our SM and ASM don't get along. WTH?